i found this post by pastor mark moore of providence community church in plano, texas and found it absolutely astounding! for a long time i’ve had a problem with joyce meyer and her heretical teachings. i’ve taught many students and had countless conversations with adults about the things that she believes in… but no one would seem to listen, her celebrity had clouded their view and their opinion making me the evil one, the one that was out to destroy their feel-good reading endeavors. i am so thankful for this post, and hopefully once again to shed some light into the faults of her teachings and those that associate themselves with her (a.k.a. crefflo dollar, kenneth hagin, kenneth copeland, etc.)
christian celebrities
pastor mark moore
I write this article with the taste of several different cheap women’s perfumes in my mouth. Today I went to a Christian bookstore, the largest and most popular in the area, and upon entering the doors stepped into a sea of overly excited women. The mixture of the perfumes alone was enough to knock me unconscious. It did not take me long to discover the occasion for this mass gathering of women with giddy schoolgirl smiles. Every available display table at the front of the store was full of the latest Joyce Meyer book entitled The Confident Woman. Beside the tables was a pallet with stacks of boxes, at least a hundred cases of the book. That’s when it hit me. She was here. Joyce Meyer, the queen of charismania was here. I moved into the store to discover several hundred people, mostly women, waiting in line to get her autograph. As they stood in line they discussed how “anointed†she was while clutching her books, posters, and bobble head dolls. Strangely, there were a few men in line as well. Most of them had just come from the Thomas Kinkade section where they were looking for a new picture to put above their aquarium.
A store official quickly greeted me, recognizing I was totally out of place, and asked if she could help me. I informed her that I needed no help and that I was simply making my way to the theology section. She wished me luck and I worked my way through the throngs of people, all of who watched me cautiously to make sure that I wasn’t trying to cut in front of them in line. Not wanting to bore you with the rest of my adventures in this circus atmosphere, I’ll get to the point. The book that I went in to get was The Finished Work of Christ by Francis Schaeffer. Ironically, Joyce Meyer does not believe in the finished work of Christ on the cross. The store I was in seemed not to believe in it either. They had thousands of Joyce Meyers’ new book, not to mention multiple copies of every volume of America’s most famous modalist bishop. The majority of Schaeffer’s works, who is perhaps one of the most influential Christians in the past hundred years, have been relegated to special order or do not carry. I walked out of the store sad, angry, sarcastic, and laughing while wanting to cry. This is the state of “American Christianity.â€
The church is happy to drink stagnant water unaware that the results are spiritual staff infection. Not only does Joyce Meyer not believe in the finished work of Christ on the cross (she believes that Jesus was pronounced guilty on the cross, but did not pay for sin until he went to hell), but she also believes that she is no longer a sinner.
I’m going to tell you something folks, I didn’t stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn’t a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that’s heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I’m righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time. All I was ever taught to say was, ‘I’m a poor, miserable sinner.’ I am not poor, I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I was and if I still am then Jesus died in vain. Amen?” (Joyce Meyer, What Happened From the Cross to the Throne?)
Someone should probably let John, the Apostle who stood in the empty tomb of Jesus on the morning of the resurrection, know that he was wrong when he wrote his first epistle stating that if any man is without sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him. Someone should probably let the Apostle Paul know that he is not the chief of sinners. Maybe someone should have told the thief on the cross that he was not really going to be in paradise with Jesus on that day because Jesus was, once again, confused; Jesus had to go to hell for a few days to pay for the thief’s sin, he’ll have to catch up with him later.
Why sarcasm? Why sadness? Because it is not John, Paul, or Jesus who needs to be corrected—it is the church. Specifically it is pastors. Pastors who are weak and afraid. Pastors who are people pleasers and ear ticklers. Pastors who don’t declare the absolute authority of Scripture. Pastors who don’t lead their churches because they are being led by their churches. Pastors who don’t want to offend the women in their churches by telling them to stop wasting their time in long lines at bookstores to secure the autographs of Christian celebrities who are more busy flying around on their private jets than studying to show themselves approved being workman who need not be ashamed because they have rightly handled the Scriptures.
The sad state of the church is that we are a cult of personalities rather than followers of the second person of the Trinity. Maybe its because one of those personalities doesn’t even believe in the Trinity. Maybe its because those of us that do don’t call those of them that don’t what the Church has always called them—heretics.
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So what do we do? I’ve heard the woman preach, and she can preach. She preaches saved by grace through faith. She preaches Christ’s death. She just adds a ridiculous detour based on nothing but human misunderstanding. Condemn her? Disassociate with her? Or just merely disagree?
a lot of false teachers can preach, benny hinn, kreflo dollar, etc. but that doesn’t make them any less of a false teacher. i’m not saying i would condemn her, but i would definitely make it known in my church that her theology is false and explain why it is a harmful theology (especially the, “God wants me to be rich” crap). Not sure what else to do.
But, all preachers are false teachers right. I mean, in a theological-sense. So, when is it harmful, and when is it just stupid?
But when is it just stupid? When people stand in lines tearful for the signature of a personality they worship (you know they are going to run around and tell everyone she signed it, show people she signed it and probably keep it in a special place, last time I knew that was called “idol worship”). When it becomes all about the person who is speaking it instead of what is being spoken, there is a serious problem there.
While no fan of any of the above mentioned, I am not sure where to stand on this…I mean do I agree with her? No not at all. Is it sad there are such things as “Christian Celebrities” absolutely. I guess it depends on how people treat their status. I look at Rob Bell. He never wanted fame and fortune, yet fame found him. It’s a hard position to be in. What if you woke up Sunday morning Aaron and your congregation turned into 5,000 or 10,000 people overnight. What if we were put into a situation where we honestly didnt want the spotlight but it was casted upon us. How do we react? What you wrote a book and people lined up to get your autograph? How do you react?
While I dont agree with the Joyce Meyer’s of the world, I am not sure there is a 100% correct answer either. I mean when it comes down to it, all scripture we read in the English language is paraphrased to some extent right?
Has anyone read Thomas Cahill before? He had some interesting insight on some of the early scribes translations of quoting Jesus. Cahill claims that much of the authentic Greek & Hebrew text about Jesus had Jesus often saying what translates into “Bullsh**” when arguing with the Pharisees of the day…and some other interesting tid bits about the gospels he uncovered.
Interesting post by Moore though.
When I first say “Mark Moore on Christian celebrities” my first thought was–yeah, that’s about right.
“Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?”
Yes, I have read Cahill–he’s very good–don’t always agree with him, but still very good–especially the Gift of the Jews (which Rob Bell has also obviously read).
Sure, but Paul and Apollos shouldn’t be despised just because people wrongly “worship” them. What are we mad at Joyce for? Being famous? Or being wrong?
Or being a loud-mouthed woman? Honestly, I don’t know anything about her theology (although I’ll take Moore’s word for it), but I think that maybe I (and perhaps all of us) might have some latent, subconscious feelings of animosity towards an in-your-face over-masculinized woman preacher.
Mark Moore…. I told P.T. that guy walks on water.
i’m not mad at joyce for being famous. i’m not mad at joyce for being wrong. i’m furious at how she is continually leading people towards a different gospel than the one that was preached by the apostles (and consequently scripture).
for example, she teaches that in order for one to be “saved” to attain salvation–you have to believe that Jesus went to hell, took on the very nature of Satan (basically Jesus became just like Satan) and needed to be born-again (based completely on his choice to do so) in order to be resurrected. the atonement, therefore took place in hell and not on the cross… so, Jesus mispoke when he said, “It is finished”
and this is just the beginning…
p.s. the mark moore that wrote the article is not the same mark moore from ozark, but rather a pastor in texas…
What sickens me is that people don’t have a mind of their own anymore. We take what people say without critically evaluating.
In our fast food nation if it looks good and tastes good in it’s shiny little package, it must be good. We don’t want to take the time to prepare our own meal and read the cookbook for something that will make us healthy and stronger. Someone else has already done all the work for us, besides it says it’s “Fat Free”, so it must be healthy.
Well … hmmm …
First, Tracy, I’m not sure your guidelines necessarily accurate or adequate.
I do agree that “When it becomes all about the person who is speaking it instead of what is being spoken, there is a serious problem there”, but sometimes that problem rests not on the messenger but on the one hearing the message. Jsut because someone is famous or others seek their autograph or to be in their presence … that alone does not make them heretical, theologically dangerous, or even problematic.
And there are lots of preachers, speakers and teachers who preach, speak and teach things I don’t agree with. Some of them in our own RM churches …
I think sometimes we get caught up picking at things that might not have the impact in the big picture we think they might … I often struggle with that. Could God use one of these “false teachers” to bring people to him? If they are preaching Christ, even with inaccuracy, are they still for Him?
The “fast-food” culture works both ways … people take many of these teachers at their word without critially thinking … but many of us take criticism of these people at face value without critical investigation as well.
I pray I would continue to have a deeper understanding of the Deep Magic and that my interpretation and understanding would never hinder another from knowing the Truth.
Well said b-matt. It’s like the whole Bible for Pornstars thing. I understand the arguments for why people are against it, but then I read a testimonial of one person who has become a believer because of it, and I say the argument’s over.
i guess then it’s okay to have a poor atonement theology… especially when it’s heresy. let’s all preach a different gospel than the one found in scripture–joyce says she preaches what angel’s tell her to say… maybe we should take a closer look at galatians 1:
let’s keep swallowing shit and continue to wonder why we continue to not look like the church…
Let’s keep separating ourselves from people we don’t agree with even though they DO preach the same gospel as us and wonder why everyone doesn’t follow us.
It’s like the discussion we had that arose last month, what are our unifying essential beliefs? our “creed”? Where as long as the person believes this, I will unite with this person. If they preach a different “gospel”, even though they claim to be a Christian speaking the words of angels, I can not.
eric, i love how you so quickly toss aside scripture.
the core of the gospel has to do with atonement theology. if our atonement theology isn’t “correct” then it’s a different gospel.
according to joyce- jesus didn’t die for our sins… he died for adam’s sin. and when he did so, he became satan himself. (sounds like a different gospel to me–i think she got it from an “angel”). she states that the only way we can be saved is to believe this… not that he died for our sins–because he didn’t, he died for adam’s sin and that is what consequently saves us… why? because according to her we are good and righteous people–there is no evil or sin in us.
hmmm, there’s a litany of scripture that deals with that one. ‘he who claims he is without sin is a liar and does not know God’; etc; etc; etc.
sounds like a different gospel to me.
i’m not mad that she has attained celebrity status. i’m furious that she is leading people to believe that they are sinless and that jesus didn’t die for their sins because there was nothing to die for.
p.s. this doesn’t even get into the fact that because we are sinless she believes/preaches/teaches that the reason we do bad things is because we are afflicted with various “demons” (i.e. the demon of alchohol, the demon of incest, the demon of lying). so in fact, it isn’t us that is doing it, but the demon that afflicts us that causes this bad behavior–not sin because we are, after all, sinless and righteous.
waiiit a second mr. mayor. you don’t think i’m a basically a good, righteous person?
answer carefully, my vote hangs in the balance.
Forgive me if my comments seem confrontational. Judging by your comment tone, it seems like I’m coming across that way.
When I got married, my pastor said that “right now angels are in heaven carving you and your wife’s name in stone and when you get to heaven you’ll be able to see it, etc.” Of course, there is no biblical reference for this, and he should not have said it. But, he’s an awesome man of God who preaches the truth.
I had never before heard Joyce’s “gospel” before. It’s ludicrous. But, when do we correct and we do separate and when do we take with a grain of salt?
i stayed with you for a week gentry, was able to witness your life firsthand rather than from a distance… so, what do you think?!
eric,
that’s cool… sorry if i came across as an ass–i was getting frustrated!
when do we correct? always. when do we separate? when it gets to the point that there is no way to correct. when do we take it with a grain of salt–good question… but in joyce’s case i cannot. her “gospel” is no gospel at all, and is heresy pure and simple.
am i glad that she’s preaching Christ? i suppose… but i fear the carnage that is being left in her wake, and those that will turn away from Christ as a result. i fear for the many that have accepted a gospel contrary to the one that we were taught.
what are you referring to? kinky katie the donkey?
Again who’s to say our interpretation of the Gospel is 100% right? I definitely dont think the early church and/or the apostles had it all right either. They couldnt have…..when Jesus was walking and teaching with them they were always making Him furious for screwing up and not getting it.
The Bible as a whole comes down to interpretation – yours, mine, theirs, scribes, translators, etc., etc…while I do agree with You Aaron, when we start saying they/she/he “isnt” preaching the right Gospel, that is no different than what they could say about us. I am not agreeing with her theology at all, I just dont think we can ever say “our way is the only way”
wow, if that isn’t one of the most dangerous things i’ve heard… “the apostles didn’t have it all right.” let’s just start picking and choosing what to ax out of scripture….
i’m not saying that we’ve got all of our theology 100% correct, but we’d better have the narrowest view of the gospel correct because at the narrowest level it’s about Christ crucified for the sins of the world. and if we don’t have that correct, then there is no gospel–there’s nothing else to concern ourselves with. without that fact of the gospel everything else becomes truly meaningless for it is only through the gospel–through Christ crucifed for the sins of the world — that we know what hope is.
So you are telling me the apostles were perfect??? What I meant by that is not saying the gospels are wrong, it’s saying that the apostles themselves were flawed as anyone…Jesus proved this over and over…I am not saying in any way the gospels or scipture is meaningless…my point is how in the world can we honestly say “My interpretation of Scripture is 100% infallable truth?”
It cant be. Maybe your interpretation is closer to what Jesus would say, but we dont know that we know that we know. Heck the English version is a paraphrase of sorts. I dont discount scipture or its relativeness at all. I just question when people start saying their way IS the way instead of taking it as your interpretation is just that, yours.
Monts, nothing to add, you’re doing a good job of keeping us readers focused on the core issue with this story.
Just wanted to give you a manual trackback, because I shared the article with my crew.
God Bless
i never said that the apostles were perfect, but the things that they wrote in scripture are/were… not because of themselves, but because as they wrote the scriptures they were guided by the Holy Spirit.
i guess i misinterpreted one of your previous comments because from the sound of it:
it seemed as if you were saying the apostles didn’t have the correct interpretation of the gospel… that’s what i was deeming dangerous and ultimately scary.
i’m not arguing for the point that all of our theology is correct, but i am arguing that the one thing that needs to be correct because all else hinges on it is that we believe Christ was crucified for the sins of the world.
how can we know this to be the “correct interpretation”? because we not only match it up with Scripture, but with the interpretations of many throughout history by matching it up with tradition. unfortunately for Joyce, her interpretation of the core of the gospel has never been held by anyone throughout the history of the church… which should give us some serious pause! (do we really think that the Spirit would withhold this for so long?)
if we believe in the Holy Spirit, then is it so hard to make the stretch that he is the one that guides our interpretation of Scripture for the core of the gospel? and if this is the case, then isn’t it possible that he can guide us towards a correct interpretation of all other aspects of theology? i think it’s when we fail to rely on the Holy Spirit that we’ve come up with much of the incorrect, ignorant and dangerous theology that is out there…
Yes I do agree the one thing that we have to agree on is Christ, and that he died for everyone. He is the way to salvation indeed.
However, Joyce isnt denying Christ’s death or resurrection, she is arguing a different point. The question of at what point are we saved? That is a question that has been debated for centuries. That is all I am saying. Personally I think she is a whacko, along with many others like her. My only thoughts are simply, I dont want to condemn anyones beliefs if they start with believing in Jesus and that he came died for our sins, then rose again. Everything after that is assumption to some degree I think.
Do I have to agree? By no means, but I dont have to condemn them for their beliefs just as we argue when people condemn our beliefs.
and that’s exactly my point… Joyce doesn’t preach Christ crucified for the sins of the world. rather she preaches Christ crucified for the sin of adam which took away our sin nature. and why you may ask… because we are sinless if we believe we’re sinless. the only reason we “mess up” is because we don’t believe we’re sinless or because some demon in afflicting us (i.e. the demon of alcoholism or pedophilia or lying).
my argument has only to do with the fact that joyce denies what you, me, and the rest of Christianity deems the essential core of the gospel. this is heresy pure and simple.
yes, she is a wacko but a wacko that is leading many away from the Jesus of the gospels and towards a gospel of self-sufficiency and self-salvation wrapped up in a nice and neat “jesus” package.
If that is truly what she preaches, then she is more JW or LDS than anything else, because that is almost exactly how they approach the cross as well.
unfortunately, she’s not alone of “accepted preachers” who teach the same thing. this “strain of heresy” within the church started to come around with the likes of kenneth hagin and kenneth copeland and all the “word of faith” / “rhema” preachers. i wish i could say that it is original with joyce–but unfortunately it’s more widespread than that…
i don’t think we can sit by and just watch it devestate the church… it’s already a cancer within our charismatic/pentecostal bretheren, it’s just they don’t realize it yet. and with the widespread popularity of joyce and her friends it’s likely that it won’t stop there….
we always seem to think that the church is being attacked from the outside, but this is a prime example of how the church is being destroyed from the inside. this is why good theology is so important.
My comments were more in response to Tracy’s … I don’t know enough details of Joyce’s theology to fairly comment. And I’m not going to comment based on what someone tells me she believes or preaches … my point was more general in nature — that sometimes we dismiss people because of differences that may not be, in the big picture, essential differences.
And I do believe an argument can be made that even the apostles didn’t have a full or complete understanding of the gospel … I think there is biblical evidence of that.
I think the point here is that we probably need to be careful and wise about drawing out our sword of division lest we be the ones doing the damage.
i’d love to see your biblical evidence of the apostles not understanding the gospel…
so, i’m guessing that there is no biblical evidence or your making claims without being willing to back up those claims.
just like you, i’m not willing to accept what someone tells me to be the case without them showing me at least a little of their reasoning…
let me clarify something. to make the claim that the apostles didn’t understand the gospel is asinine. the reason being is that the only way in which we know what the apostles understanding of the gospel is/was is through scripture. therefore, to say that they didn’t understand makes scripture incorrect or without the full understanding of the gospel that we need…
now, i’m a firm believer that the apostles (and others) wrote scripture as the Holy Spirit guided them. so, if the apostles misunderstood something, then the Holy Spirit corrected them… and if not, then Scripture is wrong.
2 peter 1.20-21 says: “knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. [ESV]
i think that’s pretty clear about the nature of scripture and the apostles interpretation…
what do you define as “the gospel” – if it is merely “the way of Christ” as I define it, then they didnt understand it 100% – Jesus spent most of the time throwing his hands in the air saying why dont you get it! to the apostles.
the evidence is over and over in the gospels about this – furthermore, I also believe without a doubt their writings were inspired and guided from God, why else would you make yourself look so dumb otherwise? I mean, the apostles screwed up constantly in the gospels and you would think if it were simply just them writing they would’ve left a majority of that stuff out…something to think about.
yes, jesus threw his hands up in the air saying “why don’t you get it!” but he said it to the disciples… this is before they were apostles. to say that they didn’t get it when they were writting scripture is flat out wrong, because it takes away the holy spirit and reduces scripture to nothing.
they didn’t understand it while they were learning it… but they learned. and to say that they didn’t get it, is to state something that is incorrect.
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