why is there so much divisiveness not only in the local church, but among the local churches in a given town, city, or area? why is it seen as competition to have the bigger, better church? why can’t we just realize that we’re all on the same team, work together and have an even more profound impact on the community?
we hear of pastors gathering together in their little associations trying to do a few nice things to “bring the churches together” but it’s always only the pastors, never anyone else… you have to wonder if it’s that way because they know it’s “safe”–as long as they meet together and portray a banner of unity, (that isn’t really there,) there isn’t any possibility of losing any of their people to another church.
well, i’ve heard of something different. and not only have i heard of something different–i’ve just recently experienced it. our church has been going through what you might call “a rough patch” over the past year. a couple of weeks ago a pastor reached out to our congregation in an interesting way… he didn’t reach out alone. he along with his elders reached out to myself and our elders inviting us to come to them with any questions or thoughts that we had, or any ideas, etc, that we wanted to bounce off of them. so, we did.
this past tuesday night we went to their building, sat down with them (all our elders and all their elders). we talked through situations looking for confirmation and for wisdom, and then the most amazing thing happened. they prayed for us* and they encouraged us and they prayed for us some more. (i’m still in shock that this actually happened–especially in decatur, il**).
there is a beautiful relationship budding between our churches–not just with the pastors, but with the leadership! it’s my hope that this relationship continues to blossom not only between ourselves but among many other churches in the city. it’d be amazing to see an outpouring of ecumenical relationships all over the place! it’d be about time.Â
why can’t this happen more often and in more places all over the country? why can’t we start to break free from these imaginary walls that we constantly beat our heads on and start coming together in a spirit of unity and of love to truly begin bringing the kingdom together?
*if you’ve been around this blog for a while, you know that i’m fairly optimistic about the church yet pessimistic when it comes to christians–so this was truly an amazing experience for me!
**a little backstory on decatur–churches in decatur have historically never gotten along and have long been accusatory of each other for “stealing sheep”. as long as i’ve been around this town (i grew up here) there hasn’t been a true sense of unity among the churches…
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this is incredibly hopeful! thank you for sharing.
Exactly on queue Aaron…the church has bought into the us vs. them mentality because that is what modern day American culture breeds. Success means numbers mean more money. It’s sad but that is what the “church” in general has become. Number hungry for itself instead of for the larger picture.
It’s part of the unchurching of people I think is vital to the rebirth of the true church of Jesus. What if you went into another church and posted fliers up for your gathering? What would be the response?
I say if church A is suited to your style and growth, then go and serve with all you can there. If it’s church B then so be it. The point isnt where you gather its the gathering as whole.
When we start buying into denominations, and “my theology” you turn into nothing more than Wal-Mart vs K-Mart vs Target and so on…glad to hear the stories you shared and I hope they continue…
Jason hit the nail on the head! Money! And it’s not nessesarily about our congregations and building bigger temples, but more poiniently, US as pastors who are hanging on by a thread with our piss poor paychecks from our “loving” church’s. We need to keep the dough rolling in to secure ourselves and family members who need a house, food, and clothing (something an average paycheck from a church in America doesn’t provide for)
I used to think paid positions in the church were awsome, I’ve since realized that the negatives far outweigh the positives (in our present situation)… this is just one example as to why. In large part, the leaders in church’s of America are TOTALLY bought off (in a negative regard). No one can afford to lead with his/her heart without the threat of being let go. A scary prospect when you’ve got needs, no savings (on account of our piss poor paychecks), and a bible college/seminary education that allows for no other job in which to make a living wage.
In a previous posting you found a statistic that read “50% of pastors are so discouraged that they would leave the ministry if they could, but have no other way to make a living”. And why are SO many pastors depressed, burned out, and leaving the ministry??? That satistic says to me that 1 out of every 2 church’s shouldn’t exist because the leader has lost hope. When you drive to work tomorrow and pass two church’s just remember… one of them shouldn’t be there.
Sorry for the length, but you touched a nerve. Aaron, keep leading with your heart man. I think God’s more impressed with that rather than numbers. I am! He’ll take care of you! (Matt 10:29-31)
wow, I guess that was a “nerve” – a little hateful at people arent we?
hmmm..but what if people bought into what Jesus taught constantly, loving others, to the point where no one was in need..to the point where if one person has two of something give to the one who has none…if people were taught the basics of what loving others and putting others first really meant, then things like “measley paychecks” wouldnt matter. It’s not just money, its an entire shift of lifestyle…why do churches go out and put themselves into millions of dollars of debt year after year? to have the cooler, hipper, nicer looking building, to “reach more people” correct?
granted pastors arent paid no where near what they should especially for the work they put in..I can agree with that, but its not the people who arent “tithing” its the whole system in general…if we truly lived like a Christ community than people would make sure no one was ever in need…sorry you hit a nerve on me too…the mindset has to change and it obviously has to start at the top in the church as well…
i don’t mean to be an asshole about the low pay that most pastors receive, but isn’t that what they signed up for?
when it comes to renumeration pastors can go one of two roads. the first is to receive low to moderate pay from the church, spend the day doing what they love and find a way to speak the hard truth to a group of people who pay your bills. the second is to be bi-vocational, spend your day doing tasks you can stomach (if you’re lucky) or absolutely abhor (if your not), your evenings doing ministry with whatever little energy you have left and be mercifully free of a congregation’s financial strings.
each road has it’s strengths and weaknesses and i assume most of us were aware of those before we started walking.
Hey Monts, that’s great. Far too many churches and Christians have a competitive mindset about the church–this is especially true I think in the Bible belt–an area where it feels somewhat “natural” to be competitive when there’s a different church on every street. I see this changing however. I think that there’s a new ecumenism that is growing and it’s not just among more liberal denominations as in the past. People are growing weary of territorialism and competition.
I think that preachers need to make it their business to teach their people about this issue every chance they get–even if for a while it may fall on deaf ears. Pray for other churches and their leaders–publicly. Team up with them in creative ministries. Worship with them on occasion.
As for Eric’s comments–it seems like you’re going through some stuff right now, and I understand those times of frustration (Monts probably understands them better), but if you keep this attitude I fear you won’t last in ministry for very much longer and your bitterness will only grow.
Do preachers get paid a lot? No (at least not the good ones). But are we really so self-righteous that we think we are the only ones who work hard and aren’t rich as a result? Teachers don’t get paid what they’re worth. Neither do social workers, factory workers, waitresses, or nurses. If you’re waiting for your earthly reward I fear you’ll be waiting for a while. If you went to Bible college/Seminary to make money, I’m sorry you were mislead.
I do agree with you on at least one point–pastors who have totally lost hope should leave the ministry. Their pessimisim will only spread like cancer and to continue to collect that “piss poor paycheck” from the poor saps that work hard and sacrifice to provide it is a dishonesty to the church and a dishonesty to the gospel.
Gentry, you did forget one other option. Marry someone like a nurse who will always have gainful (although underpaid) employment wherever you go.
or sell your swimmers. you could make some extra scratch that way.
of course, your nurse of a wife could offer up some eggs. i’ve heard those fetch far more money.
My previous post hinged on what I belive breeds church competition. If I wasn’t clear enough, let me retry to organize my thoughts.
Most pastors aren’t competing to get rich, rather, most pastors are competing to put food on the table.
Never did I belileve I’d get rich nor was that a motivational factor in my dealings inside of the church. I do however believe a man should be paid for his wages. And when the leaders of the church (pastors, personel teams, deacons, finance teams, etc), who are all presumably Christians completely ingnore this multi-thousand year old teaching (the same teaching that’s been taught by these leaders themselves), then YES, it’s one more point of consideration for me as to whether I’ll continue in this setting. As already stated by other posters, this system called church has become a sad place to be at.
Which is why rags is correct in assuming I won’t last in ministry much longer. In reality, I’ve already left my position for greener grasses. I’m now woking a job I “absolutely abhor” to allow me the freedom to lead as I feel I need to. The subtle addendum I’de make to rags’ comment is that I won’t last much longer in THIS TYPE OF ministry. I personaly have found liberation, am slowly losening my bitterness, and am enjoying ministering to people in a whole new light. All of this said and done because of my love for people NOT the hate of them.
erik, i hear what you’re saying… boy is it hard!
it’s frustrating, the fact that you’re brought in to make change happen and to make a church “better,” but then you’re not allowed to say the hard things for fear of losing your job. it’s frustrating to know that you won’t be able to say the hard things that need to be said until you’ve gained some “relational capital” with people in the congregation–which often times takes years… and even then you’re still in jeopardy of losing your job for still saying it.
there’s got to be something that can be done to rejuvinate the system–to change the way in which things are done so that actual change can take place… but unfortunately it doesn’t seem like we’re very willing to do such a thing. i think this is how the pastor as ceo model for ministry emerged… he sets himself up as untouchable in order to do and say the things that need to be said/done… but the result is no accountability, and often greater problems.
monts,
the “relational capital” you wrote of is SO true! I thought I had enough after 2 1/2 years and in the end, it didn’t make a dent. Without splitting a church or leaving on bad terms, I left in good concience knowing that throughout and up to the day I left I said the hard things when they needed to be said.
My reality now is that I can’t seem to muster the strength, nor do I wish to invest YEARS to try to change another church. For me, I feel it would be time wasted when I could been doing other kingdom work.
However, and please believe my sincerity, when I say (and have said to you before) that I cheer for you, root for you, pray for you, and believe in you and what you’re doing with your current church. The longer you can walk with that group I believe the better. Just know if and when the day comes for you to step out, I won’t see you as a failure, but will recognize your efforts in leading that group and will applaud the work done.
God has quite the tool box, we’re just a bunch of “tools”.
On the lighter side… I wish we could have met and talked some at Matts wedding. On the contrary however, the kids in my former ministry would have probably lynched me had I not talked to them the whole night. It’s a small world, I’m sure we’ll catch up at some point.
Till then…
erik,
thanks for the encouragement. i too cheer for you, root for you and pray for you and your “non-traditional” efforts to advance the kingdom! we’re all in this together–we’re all on the same team!
i too wish we could’ve spent some time together at mcclane’s wedding… but i know exactly what you’re talking about–there’s no way i could’ve gotten away either!