the major significance of the Bible is not that it is a book, but rather that it reflects the life of the community of Israel and the primitive church, as those communities sought to come to terms with the central reality that God was present with them in ways that regularly outran their ability to understand or cope. ~ Paul Achtemeier, The Inspiration of Scripture, p. 92
as i struggle with the questions of inspiration of scripture and authority, i ran across this quote by paul actemeier that rightly seeks to give the credit of scripture to the community in which is resides and in interpreted in, however i fear that it gives too much credit to the community and not enough to the Spirit.Â
i wonder how much of a tension there needs to be, and we must maintain between the Spirit and the community for the interpretation and inspiration of Scripture. it’s hard to fall in line with the likes of stanley fish (which i think this quote heads towards) and believe completely that there is no meaning in the text a part from an interpretive community–or even individual. but at the same time it’s hard to see how the text can be interpreted completely a part from the community or individual. it’s a symbiotic relationship, and a necessary relationship between the community and the text–each needs the other… but to what extent? does the text need the community more than the community needs the text? if so, then where does ultimate authority for the text come from–the text, or the community?
was it not the community that compiled the text? and if the community does have authority over the text, then what prevents us from completely manipulating and distorting the text away from it’s original meaning–and if the only meaning comes from the community, than is there even a necessity for original meaning…
just a couple of questions i’m mulling over.
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Maybe we’re not asking the right question…fully? I read a great book recently, “The Last Word: Beyond the Bible Wars to a New Understanding of the Authority of Scripture” by N.T. Wright.
I’ll admit, this book was a difficult read for me, but the basic premise that I believe is being presented is that neither the text, nor the community holds the authority, rather Jesus the Christ Himself.
Mt 28:18 – And Jesus came up and spoke to them saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth…”
Interesting thought to work off of. I hope this thread grows. I’d like to hear others thoughts.
A “Believer” & “Seeker”
–Erik–
I quote Mt 28:18 all the time to folks who want to give precedence to anyone in the Bible over what Jesus said and did. I talk Jesus’ words and actions as the end-all for any “discussion” on how to treat someone else. If Jesus didn’t cover a topic (such as voting), I’ll extend the action and see how the next action is covered by Jesus’ words and actions. Many things Christians support are definitely NOT supported by either the words or actions of Jesus.
I look to the Old Testament as a non-starter for Christians — we hold the text sacred only because it is important in showing WHY Jesus had to come, WHY He had to die, and what prophecies proved that He was the One. I look to the epistles and the post-resurrection texts as a proclamation of the early church in preparing for Jesus’ imminent return, which I believe did happen during the first generation of the early church. I also believe we live in the Kingdom now — but it is a spiritual one, not a fleshly one.
Too often I see churches base their sermons on OT texts or epistles texts, and say “This is what we should do, this is what God wants.” There is a difference there, though, as Jesus proclaimed how we mortals can do what God wants by doing what Jesus did — loved peacefully, sacrificed non-resistantly.
The only authority for me is Jesus — not the government, not my pastor, not my fellow brother in Christ. I can not judge anyone else, and I can not hate anyone else. The world of Christianity now revolves around judgement and hatred, which is why I wonder if many Christians really are committed to a Kingdom life, or if they just feel that knowing Jesus redeems them of their actions.
I can appreciate Montsy here bringing this up — while I rarely agree with him, I believe it is an important question to ask.
Sometimes I’m afraid we place more importance on the text than the history behind it. The only reason scripture is so important is because it talks about stuff that hapened to people in which God was involved. Be it the time when God lived as a human on earth, or the time he walked a road with the Israelites, or the time the early church tried to figure out what the implications was now that they became followers of Christ.
Scripture is important because it can somehow bring us into contact with these people, their experiences with God, and hopefully with God. And somewhere along the line people in the vast tradition of God believers thought that these books is the primary books in doing this.
If the Old Testament simply talk about WHY Jesus had to come, then what use do it have? Simply stating the problem? The for hundreds of years people were in relationship with God, and it had no meaning? I don’t know…
I don’t think it has NO meaning, I just think that it held meaning for so long that it became meaningful even though we live in a different Age of God. God hasn’t changed, but His Plan for us continues — and that plan doesn’t change, it just becomes fulfilled. Even the dispensationalists believe in God’s plan continuing, they just differ from my belief in when Jesus came/will come.
Everyone asks “Why bother reading such a large volume of unnecessary texts?” The OT covers so much of what people used to do/had to do/refused to do — it shows us that the answer is NEVER action in terms of appeasement of the Lord, it is strictly love and love alone that appeases the Lord. The lack of love does the opposite. Love for Jesus is the ultimate appeasement. We forget that throughout the Bible, the one thing missing is true love — until Jesus comes around. God’s love for Adam & Eve was not as easily seen because of God’s demand for obedience and God’s demand for perfection. Jesus made both obedience and perfection unimportant in the face of loving others at all cost. He did it for us, we can do it for Him.
dada, we may not agree on much… but i’m beginning to find some commonality… it’s just taken a while.
i agree that the purpose of Scripture, and ultimately the Spirit that penned Scripture was/is to point us towards Jesus. i think we forget that a lot of times… but it’s interesting to think about Jesus holding that authority rather than Scripture or the community. the question then becomes how does one regard scripture in this light? if authority comes from a third party–away from both the text and community–the how does interpretation take place?
maybe i’m not looking at this “spiritually” enough–and instead am focusing on a carnal interpretation/thought process….
so, then if all authority lay in Jesus’ hands–and the only way we can know about Jesus is through Scripture (because it ultimately points us to him), and the community is also charged with pointing people back to Jesus (Mt. 28), then how are we able if all we are doing is looking to things (community/scripture) that contain no authority?
is it possible there are levels of authority? and if so, is that really true authority if it is lesser… (i’m not thinking heirarchical…)
Think about it. Is the authority in the book about God interacting with man? Is it in the community that tries to discern the message of the book? Or is it in the One who inspired the book and birthed the community and the One who claimed to be God-in-the-flesh?
He also gave us the Spirit and the community to understand the book and especially, its implications.
Levels of authority. I was taught that there were these levels. But as I think about it objectively, it seems bizarre to elevate or to lower any revelation of God, though it seems heretical for on someone who has been taught the supremacy of scripture to say such a thing.
Monts: I’m glad that we can both have lively discussions from varying viewpoints. There are times that I pray that NO ONE accepts my viewpoint as Truth, because that would rob the world of the discussions!
One thing that I find VERY important to me when I read the Word is usually the first sentence of whatever book I am reading…
1 Cor 2: “I am writing to God’s church in Corinth, to you who have been called by God to be his own holy people. He made you holy by means of Christ Jesus, just as he did for all people everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.”
Romans 7: “I am writing to all of you in Rome who are loved by God and are called to be his own holy people.”
These verses are very key verses — they’re explaining why the author is authoritative and to WHOM. Sometimes it even explains the time frame of the authority in terms of what Jesus wanted for specific groups.
The Word is extremely difficult to discuss when you have parties with different eschatological views. For me, 80% of the post-Ressurection New Testament is eschatological in direction — so much of it deals with the end of the Age. As a fulfilled-prophecy Christian, I am an “outcast” in terms of how to deal with those directions. For dispensationalists (or futurists as some call that group), the “waiting” gives them reason to try to fit into those directions, whereas I look for direction ONLY from Christ.
The congregations I serve are ALL futurist congregations (in fact, I know of only 3 prophecy fulfilled congregations in all of Lake and Kenosha counties). Much of what I work on comes from a “waiting” ideal, so it is very mind-opening to see the difficulties that the futurist congregations deal with in trying to select WHAT directions and authority to follow. From my perspective, it is only Jesus. But I understand what many futurist pastors have to deal with in deciding direction for their “authority” over their congregation. I don’t accept any authority from my pastors (and they know it and some of them appreciate it), nor do I accept authority from my government or my elders. If they love me, I love them back. If they hate me, I love them back. That’s all the relationship is founded on. But if you still accept mortal authority, it changes things and makes it more difficult.!