if you’ve been living under a rock, then you probably haven’t heard that sadaam hussein has been executed (ironically by procedures and laws he set up).
the banner above was found on foxnews.com and i found it rather crass. last night while in the car i listened to the fervor of different news commentators from fox as their intensity and excitement grew and boiled as the moment and hour of his immanent death approached and passed. their speech sped up and the joy in their voices was almost uncontainable as a man’s life was snuffed out. no matter how evil and how vile, a life was squelched out.
i’ve personally had a difficult time with the death penalty ever since doing a research project on the subject many moons ago in high school. it was a debate project in which i took the side of pro-death penalty. as i studied and built my case it became ever more increasingly difficult to argue for it–although i did and won my case (in brilliant fashion i might add). however, i couldn’t shake the feeling last night as i heard the news and saw the reports of sadness that someone was killed. and then this morning as i saw the short video on the news of them putting the noose around his neck i couldn’t help but feel that this wasn’t right.
now, i’m not trying to diminish the evil that he caused, the great amounts of suffering and pain that he inflicted on the millions of families and people in iraq–but i am struggling with the response to murder (execute) him as being the right one. who are we (society) to play God? who are we (society) to deem whether someone should live or die? who are we to cut someone’s life short?
as a culture that debates the pro-choice/pro-life issue it seems odd that those that are pro-life do not come out against the death penalty leaving them in a contradiction– pro-life for a fetus–pro-death for a criminal. who are they to judge–who are we (society) to judge the value of a man or woman’s life?
i’m sure that this will spark some ire and rage among many and that’s okay, they’re just issues and thoughts that i’m wrestling with and have been wrestling with for many years…
(p.s. we’re one of the only “civilized” countries left in the world with the death-penalty still intact.)
newsweek has an interesting article full of quotes by world leaders responding to the execution (murder) of saddam… you can read their statements
“This is what should happen. People will be relieved. I hope that it will bring good to Iraq.” Suad Shakir, 52, a Christian resident of the Karrada district in Baghdad.
there is another great, but short, article surrounding sadaam’s execution
I believe the death penalty effectively says ‘there is no room for change or repentance’.
there are several responses to the execution coming out in article form, and here are a couple that i feel are worthwhile to share and ponder:
» shane claiborne: communicating through a noose
» brian mclaren: how does sadaam’s execution make you feel?
Related posts:
- Pro-Lifers should be out in force for this one…
- No more death penalty for kids
- the outside looking in.
- perfection, sinlessness, immortality.
- good reason?
i resonate with many of your thoughts.
a couple of parting shots:
* there are millions of people who are pro-life who do speak out against the death penalty. most of them are Roman Catholics who have long sought to cultivate a “culture of life.”
* as shocking as it sounds, while discussing the hanging this morning at the s & s men’s breakfast, i had to wonder if sadaam ever killed as many iraqis as our government has. i don’t mention this to raise controversy per se, it’s just a question i can’t seem to get around.
Saddam never killed any Iraqis. He never killed any Kurds. It didn’t happen — he “approved” of the killings in retribution for a coup attempt. Didn’t Bush II go after Saddam for attempting to harm his father?
How many US presidents have accepted murdering innocents for their gains? All of them, at least in the last 100 years. When a US soldier obeys his President, do Christians beleive this is biblical? If so, why aren’t Iraqi soldiers to obey their President? Don’t you dispensationalists believe that government is here blessed by God? I don’t. God is against human kings now, the Old Age is over.
This is a tragedy because Saddam gave millions to U.S. churches. Saddam was “our boy” against the various wars with Iran. Saddam was helped to power with US dollars and troops and finagling. Saddam wasn’t a dictator even — it was the US that burdened Iraq with a decade or more of embargos and war.
While I am saddened when anyone dies, I also believe it is biblically sound that they die. When a US troop dies, he is reaping what he has sown. He got what he deserved. The same is true of foreign troops. Living by the sword is not biblical, but many Christian gasbags think it is, so they lie to their children and their friends and their family-in-faith and try to support these monstrosities to “protect our way of life.” Our way of life was self-responsibility and not getting involved in the rest of the world — that way of life is over.
When the fallout from this happens, I will sit back, cry for everyone who dies, and thank God that He told me to love everyone and even die for my enemy. When others return to their homes in caskets, I can only thank God for leaving this world alone and not blessing or cursing anyone: our own actions give us what we deserve, and those dying for callous wars get that indeed.
Love all, judge none, but please stop doing this in my name. Tell your family in various armies to go AWOL, as Joseph and Mary did when Jesus was to be killed by the government. Run and love, don’t stay and kill, even in your heart.
no offense to anyone concerned, but i have little interest in being on the same page as mr. dada. beloved commenters, please aim your subsequent shots accordingly.
No offense taken, and please do aim where desired. I’m fit and solid with my viewpoints, which I do believe concur with what Christ practiced and preached — unlike what we hear today in His Name. Do not fault gentry13 for replying in the same thread as I have.
Monts, I fear that you are taking it a little too easy on the Butcher with your comments…
now, i’m not trying to diminish the evil that he caused, the great amounts of suffering and pain that he inflicted on the millions of families and people in iraq–but i am struggling with the response to murder (execute) him as being the right one.
But in fact you did diminish his evil when you left out the word “murder.” It wasn’t just suffering and pain–it was cold and calculating murder. He murdered thousands–many of those innocent women and children.
I understand that the issue of capital punishment is a murky one–one that I myself struggle with. But let’s not let the sad images of an old man staring death in the face portrayed on TV cloud our judgment of reality.
Incidently, I was flipping back and forth between Fox and CNN. Admiddedly Fox is overly sensationalistic about every story, but the difference was actually comical. CNN insisted on acting as if this were horrible news for America, Iraq, and the world. Fox was acting as if New Years had come early.
This isn’t a Fox News thing…it was evident on CNN.com, MSNBC.com, etc, etc.
Of course the media is going to spin this as great news, it sells ratings.
And of course Americans and people who were living in tyranny under this guy are going to be celebrating. I am not saying it is right, but it is what it is.
Everyone is saying Dada is nutso, but really all he is saying is judging others no matter if they are mass murderers or not, is up to God not man. Love each other is what Christ was about, and yes even Sadam is to be loved.
sorry rags… if adding murderer will reinvigorate his evil then consider it added, my bad!
i’m not struggling with the sad images of an old, weak, depraved man cloud my judgment of him or of reality. i find him very despicable and evil… but i truly feel that his execution was wrong no matter what he did. (although admittedly i might feel differently if it was my family he had messed with.) i know this is a murky issue and one that is relative to your point of view–so for me to comment on his execution as a horrible thing will be seen as “wrong” (too weak of a word, i know) by those who were affected by his reign firsthand.
i didn’t get the opportunity to see CNN today, however when i watched a bit of it last night i saw it as reported by anderson cooper. i think he did a very good job of detailing the somberness of the occaision–a man’s life being taken–and balancing it with the joy and exuberation of countries and thousands of people celebrating vociferously in the streets.
fox however paid no respect to the loss of a life, they were popping the corks on the champagne before he was even dead.
what i liked about cnn was that they provided sadaam with a bit of dignity–they showed him some “love” even though it was completely undeserved. that’s also what i saw on cnn’s website–fox’s (as seen above) was not, but cnn had a picture on a black background with his birth date and death dates. a simple act of dignity to someone that did not deserve it.
Yeah that’s it conspiracy theorists! It’s not GW’s fault any more, it’s Fox News!!!
Come on, are you serious? MSNBC had the same “joyful” images on their site as well. The Clinton News Network has shown time and time again, along with the AP, The NY Times, etc are all have SUPER extreme liberal left wing agendas. Now granted Fox definitely leans towards the conservative view, but they have plenty of really good liberal/democrat/independent contributors to their network. Juan Williams from uber liberal NPR and former Clinton press secretary Dick Morris are regulars I love to hear from on there.
This past election, Wolf Blitzer who was anchoring the election coverage actually was laughing, smiling, and almost ready to dance at one point when he saw how handly the dems were winning. It was like hundred dollar bills were raining from the sky the entire next day on CNN, they were so proud!
Regardless, I think it’s sad “Christians” are way too excited that a man died, no matter who he was.
i’m just talking about what i saw. i didn’t see msnbc–just fox and cnn, and they were world’s apart.
i think its funny how you talk about conspiracy theorists, and then use your own conspiracy theory of liberal bias in the media to back up your point. anyhow, it’s probably not good for your case to mention dick morris since everytime he’s on he uses it as a forum to bash clinton and hillary (okay, not everytime—but 9 times out of 10.) he’s about as conservative as you can get–not really a liberal.
and again, i’m just talking (in regards to saddam) about what i saw–i didn’t see ol’ wolfy, i saw cooper and he didn’t handle himself like you’re describing above. i’m talking about an isolated incident not scope of liberal vs. conservative (fair and not so balanced) media.
I tend not to watch the mainstream media much, not due to liberal or conservative bias, but due to lack of intelligence-bias. The media is complicit with the lumpen in supporting and allowing the growth of bureacratic waste throughout the world. When was the last time you actually heard someone say “Look, both sides are wrong, let’s just get government out of this area.” Actually, there is one guy I respect — John Stossel of 20/20. His weekly rants against government waste are hilarious and covered on mainstream media (plus he’s a great book writer, to boot). Yet beyond him, it seems that most of the media DOES support both sides of the users of force, whether liberal or conservative. Everyone wants to think THEIR government solution would work, when in reality neither side works — and both sides keep the other happy, regardless of what the politicos and talking heads say.
“lack of intelligence-bias”
i like that.
I posted some other comments concerning this issue on my blog if you want to check it out.
That is very interesting, Aaron. Because I had the exact opposite reaction to you when I found out the execution had occurred. I felt extremely relieved. I reconcile my pro-death penalty/pro-life views on the basis that Saddam Hussein was proven guilty in a court of law, and that the unborn child never committed a crime.
Here’s another “rationale” (perhaps that’s all it is). Pose yourself this question. If killing 1 person saves more than 1 person’s life, is it worth it?
ah, situational ethics! that’s fun stuff to mess with your head!
my question back to you would be: how does killing sadaam save more than one person’s life if he is behind bars for the rest of his life?
Very good question. In Sadaaam’s case, it actually will save many more lives due to the fact that his violent supporters who still called him Leader may now be forced to disorganize. But, for just a random guy with no following, it is a harder question indeed. Except for the fact that just as the monetary penalties for speeding reduce driver speed, and jail time for felonies reduces crime, the fear of death is a true consideration for murderers, proven in many studies. I could give you the “sanctity of life” argument too, but you’ve probably heard that one.
so, then to follow your logic: we should execute anyone/everyone that has violent supporters in order to save lives?
i could quote back other studies that have said that the death penalty doesn’t deter crime because of how long it takes for the death sentence to actually be carried out. if the execution took place closer to the time that the crime took place, studies say that it would be a more effective tool–however it takes decades to actually follow through with the sentence. how many people are on death row from the 70′s? answer: a lot!
you can find studies to prove just about any point you want…
i’d rather dabble in the realm of ethics than studies when it comes to the death penalty–and i haven’t been able to see/hear/find a valid argument, ethically speaking, for the death penalty. (it could be possible that i just don’t want to–but that’s another situation altogether!)
Eric said:
I doubt that will happen. I’ve been to Persia before the first US police action there and it felt like paradise — there were beautiful houses, wealthy people, a middle class, and a sustaining economy without inflation, high taxation or tyranny. An American was safe to walk the streets and we weren’t considered out of the ordinary. Then the US got involved and things went to trash. Many doctors and engineers in Iraq moved because they were afraid of the US as well as afraid of what the embargoes would do. The US supported Iraq’s “defensive maneuvar” against Kuwait’s theft of oil (my best friend’s father was working in Kuwait’s embassy during this situation and agreed with Iraq’s side). The rest is history. The US plundered and raped and murdered for 12 years — all because of Saddam, the man that the US put in office.
Saddam may have ordered people killed, but what President of what country that the US is aligned with hasn’t? Bush hasn’t? Right.
Saddam was no tyrant — he was a socialist, just like Bush II is, and just like Clinton and Bush I were before him. Nothing to see here but people who want more power. Saddam was no murdered, unless your definition is different than mine — which immediately puts most of the Executive Branch and nearly 90% of the Congressional branch in the same definition.
Murder is wrong no matter what side you’re on and what reason it is for, even purely defensively. The US is no longer a world power except for might — and that might won’t last long.
Saddam’s party may be beaten but they’re not vanquished, and the support for the Ba’athists is higher than ever internationally, so don’t be surprised when the battle comes to our shores. If anything, people will forget WHY that will happen, and we’ll just have more murder and strife.
Aaron, that CT quote was a good one and did make me stop and think. But, Saddam was given time while behind bars to repent and ask for God’s forgiveness. Grace was still an option for him. Just as every human’s actions and random consequences cause that period of available grace (life) to be different, Saddam’s actions caused the people of Iraq to say, whether you want to get right with God or not before you die is up to you, but justice must be done.
Aaron, it was no conspiracy theory, there are well documented facts from universities and study groups all over the US that are totally independent that say the majority of the US mainstream media is definitely pro-liberal, pro-democrat. Again, I noted Fox definitely shifts to the right wing conservative, and for that they aren’t perfect either. But 9 times of 10 you at least hear “both” sides of the podium when you are watching Fox. Morris trashes Bush just as much…he wasn’t the chief adviser to Clinton for no reason.
Adam how do you know he didn’t kill someone? I am quite certain he did as he was in the army over there for a number of years. And when you use your power to command genocide in your own country than I am guessing you are to be held accountable for that as well. What I will agree with you on is that is not our call though, that is God’s.
As far as would you murder 1 to save a 1,000? No, because regardless it’s sin to God. Would Jesus have done it?
Jason, at least at one time, God demanded justice through the death penalty and the destruction of thousands of people, and did not consider it a sin to enforce.
Yeah, but that is God’s call not ours…since when did humans become God?
Pardon me if my interpretation is incorrect, but doesn’t the Bible speak of the fact that God chooses, and sets into power, rulers, leaders, and in the same vain, judges?
As Christians, we are not given the role of judge, but as such, a real judge IS given that role. Therefore, it becomes the responsibility of that judge to interpret what the law deems as fit punishment. Jesus said turn the other cheek, but that command was given to us in our everyday lives, not to the body of leaders that God has set in place to serve His purpose.
Maybe I’m way off base here, but in my experience, the death penalty is backed by scripture in this manner.
I will agree with you, however, that the celebration of an execution seems to violate a few of the principles Jesus taught. Think though, if you were closer to the situation, you may feel differently about this. It’s always helpful to put yourself in someone else’s shoes before looking down on their actions.
Eric said
So it is humans who meter out justice? I didn’t realize that God was so accepting of human kings. I recall my Lord saying you can’t serve two kings.
So why haven’t any US officials been tried for Waco, TX (Branch Davidian) genocide? That was undoubtably genocide committed by US officials — should we hang them? At what point do we decide if a murder is just or unjust? From what I recall, my Lord said that all murder is wrong — even if it is merely hatred in your heart. There is no justification. If Saddam committed genocide, he did it with the approval of the US officials at the time — why are they not tried and hung?
Ridiculous argument, a non-issue. God also approved of a stoning people for adultery, didn’t He? The birth, death and resurrection of Jesus was the start of the conquering of sin and the start of the ending of the demand fo obedience. His return (my opinion) finished it. We don’t go around stoning people for breaking the Law, we accept them and love them and turn our cheek when they strike out.
I think this is misinterpreted by the futurists. God was preparing the old Age for tribulation — the end of the old Age. He had prepared the government of the nations (Roman Empire, that is) for the fall of the Temple, the vanquishing of sin, and the ability for Christians to actually live rather than die. It all came to fruition in 70 AD as all of Revelation was fulfilled — so the Epistle that talks about God’s plan for government was specific to that time-frame, ie, pre-tribulation. I doubt God planned for the monsters in State now — just as He told Joseph and Mary to ignore their government and flee to Egypt. God repeatedly told people to go against government.
If you stick to your guns on your belief there, then wasn’t it just what Saddam’s troops did to the Kurds? If you believe the God set up Saddam to rule the Iraqis, and if he told the soldiers to kill the 100 or so Kurds, wasn’t Saddam OK with God? Wasn’t Hitler, too, since God planned for him to be in power?
Christians are completely turned around if they follow the futurist perspective on the Epistles. America is not a Christian nation, no matter what LaHaye and Dobson say. It isn’t even in the top 10. God’s plans for us ended when Christ toppled the Temple in Israel and destroyed the old Age — and the need for judgement by kings of men and judges of men. We have a King, and He rules. We have a Judge, and because of the King, He doesn’t have to judge anyone anymore, because we are born of the Kingdom. Everything Adam and Eve threw away, we can secure knowing that God’s Plan was fulfilled, now we can live like Christ and share and love and mentor and discuss — but not tax and murder and judge and stone.
Yeesh, to think of the millions who support an American government because God “tells them to,” but then offenses against a foreign government because “sure God didn’t mean all governments!”
ah, prooftexting by the anonymous (someguy)… my favorite!
dada, we may not agree on much… but this is a great argument:
someguy said:
that’s a dangerous statement… you’re basically saying that the government is exempt from the commands and laws of Scripture… so, i guess i’ll run for office, because then i can do whatever i want!
And I absolutely “hate” when people agree with me completely — I just like people to think things through. I don’t think I am right, but I also don’t like people who create these convoluted scenarios that are always pro-Homeland and anti-everyone.else.
You can, at least that’s the case for the Right when guys like D. James Kennedy and Dobson and Falwell are providing for your right to tyranny. It’s “God-granted” of course!
monts said:
When I wrote what I wrote, I had the hardest time stating that in the way that I actually believe, so I knew it would be called out. I do not believe that the government should be able to do whatever they want. Although flawed, our systems of checks and balances it what is supposed to keep this from happening. Its more of an aspect of accountability (which in the discussion of sin, personal accountability is taught in the NT), what is a sin for some, is not a sin for others. By this manner, and in this line of thinking, the executioner is not accountable for murderer himself.
However, I stand by what I said that our leaders are set into power by God. This reaches a debate far greater than politics (God’s interaction: micro or macro?) that I don’t really want to get into.
My statements were worded in that manner, because frankly, I am lacking in my biblical studies, as of late. I did not want to misquote or misrepresent the Bible. It was an open invitation for you to poke holes in my statements, using the Truth, not anything else.
So please, do not view my statements as a full argument, for I have pointed to nothing to back up my claims. Just consider it an alternative viewpoint.
From a non-biblical stance (or maybe biblical if you consider stewardship biblical), why should people that have committed several heinous crimes get to comfortably live while stealing resource that could go to help people dying from starvation and poor health?
Really? So why are there so many unconstitutional and ungodly laws on the books? Why have the two mega parties prevented other parties from entering the system? If God wants governments here, how are YOU and I to decide which governments He wants there? That’s a very slippery slope to start to dictate which governments are Godly and which aren’t — especially when you look at other “Christian nations” that have completely different interpretations of what power they have.
I’ll say it again — you can’t serve two kings, and I am very sure that most Christians are ignorant of the world if they think that God still wants us to follow the kings of men.
Why should we care if they do? Christ was put to death by Romans and Jews who were still in power after His Sacrifice, right? Did God kill any of the rulers? Did God ask Christians to kill any of the rulers? Did God try to kill Herod when Herod wanted baby Jesus dead? Did God attempt to stop Israel’s fall in 70AD, to be replaced by 2000 years of Palestinian rule (which was ended by mass murders and genocide by US and “Israeli” governments)? Did God allow Stalin and Hitler to commit genocide, both with the US’ acceptance even beyond the wars?
It is too slippery for me to get into because Jesus is CLEAR about not judging others — we aren’t to. Judges go against God when they judge, soldiers go against God when they “defend” and politicians go against God when they steal from me (tax), enslave me (jail/military draft) and rule over me (removing free will). There’s no doubt in my mind of any of these things — and I’m not trying to force anyone to agree with me, yet that is what the State does: it forces people to agree.
There is more starvation in the US and poor health in the US because of the State, not because of private citizens’ lack of desire to help others. In fact, I’d say most starvation is caused by ridiculous tax-and-spend schemes that destroy our ability to help others.
If someone wants to be a tyrant, so be it. I can still love them and help them, even those who seem to never want my help. That’s fine, because I also help those who do want my help, but still act tyrannically and egomaniacally.
Here’s what I don’t understand about your argument, Dada. You come against the viewpoint that leaders are in power for a reason. Yet you want to leave tyrants in place, and show them love.
It would make more sense to believe that God does not interfere with the leaders of the world, so if they are evil, take them out. Or, if He does, don’t interfere because God wants them in place.
I don’t believe with either standpoint in such a cut and dry manner, but I’m just confused at how your ideals are being meshed together.
alright… check out this article dealing with the death penalty, especially in the case of sadaam.
it’s a good read.
Why does this aspect that Christians are not to judge others keep getting brought up in the aspect of the death penalty? To say that, you are saying that we shouldn’t have a judicial system to punish wrong doers. Do you really believe that thieves, rapists and murders, should go unpunished until kingdom come? Why is it so hard to see that God can use humans to punish humans that do wrong?
I hate this propaganda that we are not to judge others. Please read the entire verse, and the surrounding scriptures. The NT talks about removing evil doers from the church. What is it called when you label that person as doing evil (hint: starts with a ‘j’)? Discernment and wisdom should not be cast aside in this blind attempt at reaching some Utopian society that would only exist if everyone on earth were God-fearing Christians.
Bad context. The Epistles that talk about judging an evildoer in the church was specific to the time frame, ie, the First Church that was waiting the imminent return of Jesus to vanquish sin once and for all, in their lifetime (generation), quickly, soon, etc. It wasn’t about maintaining accountability in the Body, just in the First Church because Christ had warned them to keep themselves pure as sin was still around. Since the First Church was ready for Christ’s return (which I believe happened), it makes sense that they would be still judging per the Old Age since those who weren’t keeping themselves pure would be judged along with those who didn’t believe in Jesus. That was a rough time, indeed, for Christians.
As for punishing thieves, rapists and murderers, I am against it, yes. I see no reason to do it — what does it accomplish? It puts someone in jail where they are free to learn new crimes (proven, actually). It tells someone that the act they performed is wrong from society’s standpoint, but how many jailable actions are really wrong? Is it wrong to smoke marijuana in your own home? That puts you in with thieves, murderers and rapists. Is it wrong (to society) for a 19 year old to have sex with their 16 year old significant other? That puts you in with thieves, murderers and rapists.
I’ll leave “criminals” to God, since there is nothing I can do to punish them but enslave them with other “criminals.” The Bible doesn’t mention throwing people in jail — it mentions forgiveness in hopes that they repent. You can’t forgive when you judge.
I don’t fear God — the Father sent His Son to the earth so no one has to fear him. Unless you think you’ll be like Peter when he and his thugs murdered Ananais and Sapphira in order to keep that First Church together and pure — then I fear you as Ananais and Sapphira feared Peter. The Father did an amazing and loving thing with Jesus, but Christians don’t like losing power over others, I guess.
Hippy.
Not quite. I’m a pure Christian capitalist, some call me a christianarchist or a anarcho-pantelist. I believe in using our hands, tools and property to better ourselves so that we can serve others — and so others can reap the benefits of what happens when we want to better ourselves. Definitely not a hippy, just a Christian capitalist who doesn’t believe that government should interfere with those who know what their needs and talents are.
The hippy thing is a joke, by the way. However, its to the point now where its evident that your beliefs are based on far different principles than mine, so much so that it is pointless to continue.
My beliefs are based in the Bible and the infallibility of the content therein. I have no problems with using outside sources to validate the information in the Bible, and I have yet to see any of that outside information prove the Bible to be inaccurate.
I figure you are of the type (sorry for the generalization, but I don’t know you, so it’s required) that states that you base your life around Christ’s, not the Bible or the Church, which has been “tampered” with.
If this is the case, where does your notion of Christ come from? Is it your own personal experiences? It can’t be the Bible, since you undermined its teachings in your last post. If its based on your personal experiences, then go ahead and be tossed about like a wave in the ocean. Go shoot up some heroin and report back to us what your new version of Christ is.
As for me, I will remain unshaken in the Word of God that has stood the test of time, and is a living, breathing Truth.
As a side note as well, “God-fearing” does not mean being scared of God (thank you English language for being so worthless).
An alternate definition of fear is reverence. So feel free to replace God-fearing with God-honoring.
And that is what I consider a very dangerous position on the Bible. Infallibility I don’t disagree with, infallibility for the Bible to address our needs doesn’t seem accurate. Many dispensational evangelicals even go back to the OT to try to understand living today, and many of their followers wonder why they’re blind to the Kingdom. It’s sad. The Bible is infallible, but it isn’t inerrant in the English translations — in fact, there are so many mistranslations that I am not surprised that so many Christians are really Scofeldians or Moodyians.
As a generalization, it is accurate, but not 100% so (of course). Christ lived the Kingdom life, which is why so many are confused by His Parables and stories and actions. But I agree, I definitely would never use Acts or any Epistles as a model for a modern part of the Body (“Church”), because I see those books more as historical representation of what the First Church had to go through as Christ’s promised return became more and more imminent.
Ha, that’s actually a funny one because I was just having a discussion last night with a Christian who doesn’t like my “legalize heroin and all drugs” stance. All my basis for living is captured in the Bible, but not as a guide. The Bible is not a guide as much of what is held within the Bible is either a lesson of what not to do (all of the OT), a lesson of what the First Church had to do to prepare for Christ’s return (most of the NT), and a guide to how we are to interact with others (about 5% of the NT). I see 85% of the NT as eschatological in nature, so it dealt more with the end of the Old Age/Covenant and less to do with modern living. For most Christians, that isn’t the case, but they can’t bring together the flaws between the OT, NT and Christ (all 3 are completely different).
But it hasn’t stood the test of time because of humans who wish to try to keyhole and shoehorn the Bible into what power they want over others. Scofield, Moody, Arminius, Calvin — they all changed the texts to reflect what they needed.
Dictate to me the following verses:
Matthew 17:21, Matthew 18:11, Matthew 23:14, Mark 7:16, Mark 9:44,46, Mark 11:26, 15:28, Luke 17:36, Luke 23:17, John 5:4, Acts 8:37, Acts 15:34, Acts 24:7, Acts 28:29 and Romans 16:24. MOST Christians can’t — why is that? My Bible has them. So if it stands the test of time, why are Christians unaware of pieces that are missing? If so, it seems to me that the Word has not stood the test of MAN, even though the specific portions which dictate living the Kingdom life (how post-First Church people should live) are still strong and make perfect sense.
At face value, yes I agree that the english translations may not be exactly what was penned. As is the case with my side note, the english language is trash. That’s where the living, breathing part comes into play. Here is where your view and my view are radically different. You discount a majority of the Bible as a mere historical document.
You mention that your Bible includes all of those verses, but does it come alive when you read it, like mine does?
Also, is the part where Jesus came to fulfill the law, not abolish it, in the part of the Bible you believe?
And yet it mostly is — and has always been. The people who came generations after Adam had the story of Adam’s fall to try to understand what their lives were about. Every part of the story was provided with prophecy of what would come — and each prophecy was fulfilled, each promise was followed through on, usually in short order (a few hundred years, generally).
As that history progressed, man continued to fall from God’s desires — and God continued the story with more prophecy to fulfill what man failed at (or to continue to show many more punishment due to man’s failures). What was important to Adam and Eve can not be important to us because we’ve seen the continued history. What was important in Kings and Samuel is unimportant to us — because God’s Story continued. In fact, it continued up until Revelation was written (69AD by my research) because THAT was when the Story would end in terms of God’s involvement.
Absolutely. As I read it, cover to cover as intended and as any book is to be read, I am blown away by how far man walked and how far God continued to bless — He could have destroyed the world completely for its inobedience. Do you read books in pieces, jumping around to various sentences and paragraphs and chapters, so you can try to understand a single verse or paragraph? Of course not — the entire story is only complete when it is ready cover to cover.
Of course! The Law was given by the Father to men who basically demanded it in their words, actions and prayers. Only the Father, who gave the Law, could abolish it. Jesus is not the Father, He is the Divine One. The Father wanted the Law fulfilled by all men, true obedience. To not follow the Law means to not fulfill it with your life and your obedience. Jesus did not have the power to abolish it, but He did have the power to fulfill it so no man would have to ever again. He did that with his perfect life (God demanded a perfect life). He even went a step further to end the judgement of men by dying, even though He lived a perfect life. God’s Law was fulfilled, God’s Judgement was completed. Then Jesus said He would go even one step further to vanquish sin entirely by returning again in a final battle before He left us forever to rule and be by the Father’s side. He did that, too, in 70AD (I believe). Jesus fulfilled the Law by obeying it completely and sacrificing totally — fulfilling it so we don’t live by it any longer.
God has no demands of us other than loving others as Jesus did, sacrificing ourselves as Jesus did, living non-resistant, as Jesus did, and living non-aggressively, as Jesus did. We don’t have to, but it blesses us with seeing the Kingdom here and now — unlike the millions of Christians who keep crying “what is it all about?” and “why won’t God hear me?” He won’t. Jesus won’t. The Spirit was left here for us for guidance to the Kingdom that exists — here and now, just as Revelation said it would, just as Jesus promised on the Father’s behalf.
The Law is over, sin is over, obedience is over — free will to follow the Spirit is what gives us the Kingdom, or takes it away. No matter what your parents or pastors have taught you, you are the Church, you are with Christ always and pleasing to the Father as you serve others as Christ did. That’s what living is — thats what it means to be alive!
Like I said in a previous post, there is truly no way to reconcile our beliefs. Yes, there are many things I agree with you, but we reach those conclusions following different roads.
In the interest of me getting back to the real world, instead of typing all day, I will have to call it quits. I will add your viewpoints to my understanding of how various people understand the world, and I will extract little nuggets of goodness from what conversation has taken place today. I only ask that you do the same.
I agree to that, and always will
More than 95% of the congregations I serve through my ministry disagree with my views, but that’s part of what makes me smile — that there ARE many ways to reach some similar conclusions. All I want to do is introduce some thought as to how many ways we can go against God’s overall story. Most Christians are fine with taxes, or for them even, but I call them theft. Most Christians are fine with courts and jails, I call them slavery. As people might at least CONSIDER that perspective, maybe the world can get better strictly through serving others and loving others, rather than force and judgement. Maybe, just maybe.
Adam, my point wasnt to say others are faultless…my only point was that you noted Saddam “didnt kill anyone” and I highly doubt that statement to be true. I am not saying what any murderer does is good whether it be an American or not….did you listen to part 3 yet? Jesus was a peacekeeper, are we supposed to follow his model?
I know I lied, but I can’t help but post one more time.
The NT church was miles ahead of what the Church Body is today. The times that I have seen the greatest success in the Church has been when it was emulating the NT church.
You are quick to dismiss the NT church as a culturally relevant discussion only, yet you are against this organized religion that Christianity has become. Once again, I fail to see how you add these two things together, and get the opposite of what I get.
You seem confident in your case, but there are some discrepancies I just can’t get around (especially on your claim that you believe in the infallibility of Scripture, yet state that Peter murdered Ananias and Sephira).
Success of what though? The people who attend the congregation? I’m not sure if that’s a sign of success if the community isn’t lifted above the usual problems — and I have yet to see that happen. I’m not saying that we can gauge a congregation’s value strictly in seeing poverty go down or crimes go down, but I think there is some value is trying to see what benefits are “gained” in a worldly sense. For me, serving others is strictly of spiritual value — I don’t do it for wealth or gain.
Organized religion, to me, is what the anti-Christ was in Revelation — men with power spewing control over those fearful of the spiritual realm. Not much has changed in that regards, so I don’t look to organized religion to be a net positive. Christ offered His grace without any organization or requirement of any kind — but most congregations don’t work that way, and the NT church surely didn’t either. Of course, I truly believe that pre-parousia/tribulation, there WAS a requirement of both faith AND works in order to reap the benefits of what happened at the tribulation. I believe that isn’t necessary anymore, yet I do believe that good works today show us the Kingdom life today, and having that knowledge for the afterlife will be a positive.
If Peter didn’t kill them, then his cohorts did. If they didn’t kill them, then it was the shock of discovery that did (heart attack or what not). I have absolute certainity in my conviction that God surely didn’t intervene there — if God did, then Jesus’ coming and death and Resurrection was for naught. There is no way that the same God that sent His Son to die and rise again for sin would intervene in a worldly effort. Stealing from God is worldly, and Christ spoke all about worldly possessions and their lack of value. I’ve never understand the offering in a congregation either — don’t ask for people’s money, ask for people’s hearts and time to serve. Money means nothing if dedicated volunteers would do the work of the dedicated staffers. Christ was about the spiritual realm, not the worldly one, so Ananais and Sapphira are of no consequence to God post-Resurrection, in terms of their sin (note that I believe their act happened after Resurrection but before Tribulation, where sin was still in existance in the world).
I know most CHristians think God killed the two liars/thieves, but I see no Biblical evidence for it, and it goes counter to what Jesus meant completely.
What’s this event that happened in 70ish A.D. you speak of that convinces you that all of the prophecy contained in the Bible has already been played out? What about the 1000 year reign and the new heaven and earth?
If this Kingdom living is supposed to be the new heaven and earth, God must have really screwed up, thinking that humans as a whole were going to get their act together and live right.
It scares me how no one here debates under the open assumption that they could be wrong. Too many smart people here I guess. Dada, so…really? Ideally, you’d like to see no laws in place? and you don’t think that could cause complete animal-like chaos? or, is that ok with you if it does as long as it’s the right hting to do? I totally understand the premise that your argument falls behind. I just can’t imagine the consequences of actually seeing it in action within a fallen world, despite the amazing power of the Holy Spirit.
and i am SO curious about where this Ananias theory came from? please feel free to explain it to me, ’cause I have never heard that before. It reminds me of when my friends say “if God is so forgiving, then shouldn’t all people go to heaven” – the idea of basing what WE think God’s character should be and using that to interpret Scripture rather than taking Scripture for what it is to better understand the complexities of the character of God.
Asking him to explain the Ananias theory would be similar to asking a UFO expert to explain Roswell. In other words… I wouldn’t.
As for debating under the assumption I might be wrong, apparently this is called pretexting.
@ aaron. Seriously though, I hope my first couple post explained how I realize my opinion may be warped by not being as deep in the scripture at this time as I should be. I have remained open minded through this discussion, even if my posts contradict this at any point.
It’s more complicated than a simple run-down, unfortunately. The odd thing is that I came to the conclusion on my own — before actually running into numerous others online and offline who also came to that conclusion.
In terms of your two questions, the 1000 year reign is not read by most Christians correctly. The Word doesn’t say that Christ will reign for 1000 years, it says that those who died for God’s purposes would reign WITH Christ for 1000 years. Re-read those verses in Revelation and I think it clears that question up — we won’t be part of that reign, but those before Christ’s tribulation (and up to it) did in some fashion.
As for the new heaven and earth, it is idiomatic for sure because the exact same words used in the Isaiah prophecies are used here. Isaiah 24 talks about God’s judgement on Israel as fallen people — but the coming and going of the Christ did not properly fuilfill Israel as the Jews were expecting, so most Jews ignored Jesus for this reason, just as many Christians ignore the tribulation as it likely occurred. Jews are waiting for their Messiah because their prophecies were not fulfilled exactly as they had been TAUGHT (by men) that they would. It is no surprise that Revelation uses the same idiomatic terms as Old Testament prophecy — remember who Relevation was written for: mostly Jews or people familiar with Jewish prophecy.
It would seem to me, with my studies of Isaiah (especially Isaiah 65 in this case) and other Old Testament prophecies and wordings, that the new heaven and earth would mean heaven and earth under the New Covenant — the Jesus Covenant or the “Law” of Jesus. The Jews ignored their Messiah, and God revoked their mandate of heaven upon the tribulation of the faithful dead and unfaithful living (which did happen in 70 AD, according to Josephus and a number of other Jewish historians and recordkeepers). The Jews had the mandate of heaven alone, and they lost it. The Old Age/old heaven and earth were “destroyed” leaving a new heaven and earth for all, based on the blood and return of Jesus.
Matthew 24 predicted the fall of the Temple in 70AD. Matthew 23:31-39 would label Jesus a liar if He didn’t return while some of those people were still living (or do you believe that some people are still living after 2000 years in anonymity?). I don’t call Jesus a liar, but most Christians do as they continue this “imminent” thought. When He said “in your generation” and “while some of you are still living,” He meant it. There’s no debating that, I don’t think, because the debate would either label Him a liar, or it would mean He fulfilled what He said he would.
Surely most congregations call me a heretic for this viewpoint, but there are more and more Christians who are starting to feel conned by some of the teaching of the modern church — and I’ve been trying to answer a lot of questions that I don’t think SHOULD be answered. Even Christ said that some will see the Kingdom and others won’t — He didn’t mean salvation or heaven, He meant seeing the Kingdom here and now. And it does exist, but how do you point someone towards something they’re not prepared to see?
I think there is room for something else — basically the ideology of smaller, less restrictive covenants between men. Government is a non-covenant because we’re not allowed to really accept it, we’re forced to. There are a few dozen websites that talk about how to live without a State, and I think the ideas behind it are intriguing and realistic given the size of the population and how often it is that it is the State that creates havoc and anarchy, not the lack of the State. I’m not saying it is an EASY process and I would rather call for disassembling government little by little before I would call for its complete vanquishing. I’m all for a political party that agrees to only abolish laws, not create or modify them
I created quite an uproar among about 15 pastors when I brought this up to 2 of them in the same room once. They were all raised and taught that God struck down Ananais and Sapphira — and they taught others that, too. Yet a reading of the Scripture doesn’t put God anywhere in the story — only Peter, his minions, Ananais (alone) and Sapphira (alone). There’s no connection to a Judgement by God here. If there was, I really think it counters everything Christ died and rose for — if Christ came for all souls, including sinners, how could any sin force God to judgement if Christ battled to prevent this? So far, no Christian who supports the God-killing theory can come close to an explanation that contains both Christ’s Love and God’s Grace post-Resurrection. The simple explanation is either that both died from heart attacks from the sheer shock of being found out (possible, as this still happens!), or they were murdered (less likely, of course, but still in line with the power of the Apostles of the First Church to keep them all free from sin pre-tribulation).
Also, this is another touchy subject that I myself have tried to read through in terms of modern English translations, as well as ancient Greek and Hebrew texts. The idea of universal salvation is one that all Christians (rightly?) should shy away from, but it also isn’t un-Biblical. I’m on the fence about it — I was raised to believe in salvation by faith alone, but the Hebrew wording of the New Testament seems to go in the other direction (universal salvation for all). It’s one that has been nagging me for about 9 months now, but I keep putting it off for fear that it could put me in really hot water in terms of my ability to serve
I stand believing in faith-salvation, but I am not secure in that belief. Most pantelists (of which I generally consider myself a member of) believe in universal salvation based strictly on Biblical texts — I am still leaning towards faith-salvation. The works issue is a non-issue because Jesus only talks of works and the Kingdom, never works and salvation. Christians who require works for salvation are not reading the texts properly, that’s a for-sure in my book (but I won’t judge them or call them out on it). Reading Jesus on salvation is a process of confusion because HIS words completely contradict the words of men who teach those words. When He says “through me alone” he doesn’t say “through faith in my life and resurrection,” just “through me alone.” That’s one to spin one’s brain for a few weeks, hah.