on new years eve i was able to attend the journey in st. louis. it was a very unique experience, and one that gave a great picture of thinking creatively in your approach to church.
today, the st. louis post-dispatch ran a story on the journey and their relationship with the missouri baptist convention and the southern baptist convetion (sbc). it’s a interesting story especially considering a gathering that the journey puts on called ‘theology at the bottleworks’ where people gather to discuss theological and cultural issues over beer. (it harkens back to what martin luther did in germany). recently the sbc has taken a hard-line stance against alcohol in any way shape or form and now there’s some ruffled feathers and a bit of contention between the two—but mainly, according to the article, from the sbc. (a funny note is in the article darrin patrick, the lead pastor, is praised by the executive director of the missouri baptist convention for creating an “ideal model” of church.)
this is an interesting story that chronicles and details the clash between modern and postmodern ministry… (please don’t read that last statement narrowly as only relating to alcohol, but in the larger context of freedom and flexibility vs. legalism and fundamentalism).
Related posts:
- a million baptism march.
- why do they do this?
- Interesting site…
- the reproducing church experience
- michael j. fox interview on cbs.
I do not drink (I hope I don’t get kidney stones) – partly because of my employment, partly because of personal taste, partly because of upbringing, and partly because of potential “weaker brother” issues. But I can think of few places where Midwestern churches have built a clearer “hedge about the law” than on this particular issue. I come back to my analogy about world missions. I’m sure that the SBC advocates all sorts of innovative approaches for reaching people overseas, but when it comes to reaching the lost in the Midwest we must bow down before some sort of Christian subculture. So we aren’t just winning people to Christ, we are firstly winning them to a culture.
Let me also give the other side of the issue. There are some things about the ec that have irritated me from the beginning–perhaps the biggest hurdle for me to overcome is the apparent flaunting of our freedom in Christ that happens in many of these communities. I’m not accusing this particular church of doing that, but maybe some wisdom is in order. We should remember this…the culture that surrounds drinking in American society is clearly anti-Christian and if any “church” is in any way encouraging that culture, then perhaps we need to rethink the exercise of our Christian freedoms.
come on, rags…the culture of drinking in the bible-belt and midwest is clearly f’d up. but i think is the result of a pseudo-gnostic approach to christianity as much as it is an unwise libertinism.
up here in the northeast most christians that i know partake from time to time in pubs, homes and even after church and i’ve rarely seen this practice lead people into abject sin.
over the past couple of years the SBC has shown a lamentable tendency to transform non-essential matters, such as the ordination of women, drinking and supporting supreme court candidacies, into essentials. it is practices such as these that is leading a number of innovative and culturally aware members of their denomination to jump ship.
shit, rags…i should have read your first comment before shooting my mouth off. my apologies.
rags, you could get shot for that last line (by conservative evangelicals that must have their Christian kitch first): we aren’t just winning people to Christ, we are firstly winning them to a culture. however i don’t think you could be any more spot-on!
i did have a question for you though, what is the “culture that surrounds drinking in American society” that you’re speaking of? i don’t want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds as if you’re coming at it from a very narrow reading/interpretation.
Yeah, I guess I should define what I mean. I was painting with a pretty broad brush. I guess what I’m talking about is the great Pauline word “debauchery.” The (midamerican) drinking culture (at least as I see it from the outside) has a hard time distinguishing the drinking from the debauchery. The alcohol is the oil for the wheels. There is just something terribly unseemly, inappropriate, and non-Christian about a sub-culture that believes nothing of meaning can ever happen socially if it’s not accompanied by a beer buzz. In the meantime lives, families, and finances are trampled underfoot. I know this is a gross caricature, but it is this caricature that ought to at least give the Church pause when we discuss the freedoms of drinking. Look at the Knights of Columbus. At the KC in Lincoln you walk past a crucifix on your way into the bar, and from my own observation there’s not a whole lot of righteousness to be found there. To many, Homer Simpson captures the sentiment of our drinking sub-culture the best–Alcohol is a way of life. Alcohol is my way of life and I intend to keep it.
What I dont get is why people get so bent out of shape over alcohol, smoking, and gambling, and so on and on….I dont see any huge statements by denominations, conferences, etc denouncing people being fat, living in debt, or any other things the “American way” has condoned as ok.
Anything done in excess can be bad in my opinion….
it’s a good question. I think that in many churches (and Bible colleges) these issues have become a law unto themselves, but we shouldn’t close our minds to common sense. Alcohol, smoking, and gambling (and we could probably add others) are what I would call gateway activities for many people. Alcohol leads many to abuse and drunkenness. Smoking leads to unecessary health risks, addictions, and perhaps even financial problems. Gambling may lead to broken home and huge financial losses. When my parents gave me a curfew in high school it wasn’t because they thought there was anything “sinful” about being out past midnight. They just believed that the chances of doing something stupid went up dramatically after midnight (and they were probably right).
Actually Rags, your caricature of the “drinking subculture” may be ore a product of assumption and upbringing than reality, but then again, perception in some ways becomes reality … In my experience, one of the issues is this idea that many of our churches have that “alcohol is the devil’s koolaid” … and yet I know MANY Christians who worshipped in those same churches but continued to hide the fact that they appreciated a glass of wine or pint of beer on occasion. I think maybe that contibutes just as much to some of the issues that the EC and others are trying to address … it has more, at it’s purest core, to do with living authentically and transparently than it does with flaunting our freedoms. I don’t know, I’m probably just adding to the confusion and maybe not adding constructively to the conversation as I’ve not really had time to process my own thoughts before spewing them out here.
I just wonder how the perception, ergo the reality, might change if Christians were not so caught up with ideas like alcohol leads to debauchery and debauchery leads to alcohol.
In fact, sitting around with other believers enjoying wine at dinner is one of the most liberating, freeing experiences I’ve had … something very unpretentious and refreshing about it.
I would agree that this has more to do with excess than with alcohol. But that is clearly just one opinion among the many. I just know I’m not going to be apologetic about enjoying a pint of Smithwick’s with my dinner from time to time. Though I am always careful about my company when I do choose to imbibe … I do agree that there’s something here related to the “weaker brother” idea … though I’ll be honest that I’m more careful around those whose weakness is alcohol than around those whose weakness is legalism and self-righteousness.
Your right Ben–I am coming at this from an outside perspective which is partly the point. It is a tough sell for many, many Christians to tolerate the drinking of alcohol because of all the potential abuses. Why tolerate even the occasional harmless indulgence in something with such devestating potential. This isn’t a particularly sound argument (since virtually everything material in this world has certain devestating potentials-especially wealth), but I can definitely understand where they are coming from.
I agree about the weaker brother issue, but you could make the case from 1 Cor. 8 and other places that to Paul the weaker brother was a “legalist” of sorts.
…and add to your list of what alcohol, smoking, gambling can do to you….
Being fat can cause health issues, which can cause financial issues, which can cause all sorts of issues….
The list can go on and on…the point is the church is quick to judge certain things like drinking, but the sr pastor is 400lbs while proclaiming alcohol sin?
But I would argue that for MANY Christians who take the “no alcohol” stance, it’s less about potential abuses and more about culture and upbringing. We can argure potential abuses all we want, but I think some of us, if it came right down to it, would have a hard time really giving a thoughtful answer to the questions “can/should Christians drink alcohol?” … most of us were taught growing up it was sinful and are stuck in that mindset …
In all honesty I think it’s a cloudier issue than most of us were ever taught to believe. And, in all honesty, I think there are likely issues we should spend more time on as a Church.
To get back to the bigger issue Aaron raised about the “clash” between modern and postmodern, etc. … I’m not so sure we can make that leap. I think maybe for some, issues like drinking alcohol have simply dropped off the radar … and other issues have taken their place …. maybe less about M vs. PM and more to do with an utter distaste for legalism and fundamentalism and a greater desire for, for lack of a better term, authenticity. In fact I’d say that maybe a higher percentage of those claiming to be Christians are not drinking now than, say, 50 years ago. But maybe a higher percentage are not hiding it, but being open about it?
Just me thinking out loud.
Good thinking, Ben.
My biggest problem with the beer issue is when a 350lb pastor tells me that consuming alcohol is sinful — the beam and speck verse comes to mind here. I had it happen to me outside of a conservative church when I was smoking (in my car) — a very VERY large woman was criticizing me for smoking. The hypocrisy is rampant in legalist churches.
Also, on the occasions when I have been drunk, I have realized that it was ungodly — so I didn’t do it again, at least not often. Why was it ungodly? Because I wasn’t doing something that I could show as beneficial to the rest of the world and admire God for giving me the talents to do those beneficial actions.
I think Old Testament law is pretty straightforward. I think that pre-Tribulation New Testament actions are pretty understandable — an early church waiting for Christ’s return. As a preterist, though, I don’t see how alcohol or cigarettes or any of the rest really has much to do with the Bible or what God has blessed us with — namely the end of the penalty of sin. Again, though, this is where I differ greatly from the x-millenialists, and I can understand why they have so many differing opinions on the issue.
I agree that this issue has fallen off the radar for many. I also agree that it is cultural, but I return to Paul’s argument in 1 Cor. 8. There are times when cultural issues do in fact dictate our praxis. If drinking alcohol is unacceptable in my community for cultural reasons, then I must be humble enough to not flaunt my freedom (or knowledge) in that community. For me it would in fact be immoral to drink alcohol because of the authority that I have submitted myself to and because of my position within my community.
I agree with you on that rags … I really do.
But I also know some “stronger brothers” who like to use that argument to strong-arm others into falling into their idea of what it means to be a Christian. I think we both agree it’s not a “this or that” issue and it takes some senstivitiy and understandning on everyone’s part.
I just would love to see us change the order of our thinking. For too long we have equated changed behavior with changed lives … instead of the opposite. I’d much rather see us encourage changed lives that will undoubtedly lead to some changed behaviors rather than harping on changing behaviors as if that will somehow lead to a changed life.
Great reply. Thanks for your blog!
I feel some people are missing the point here. Christianity is not about what you can “get away” with, but rather the humbling of ourselves in reverence to Christ and His example, so as to glorify God. This is about sacrafice as much as freedom. I think there are way to many christians hanging their hats on this “freedom” pole. My point, is freedom is great, however sacrafice and glorifying God is far greater. Jesus could have whooped Satan in His temptation a zillion times over, BUT, he knew He had a far greater and deeper meaning and ultimately God would be glorified beyond if He did’nt whoop Satan there but rather on the cross.
The PostDispatch article is nothing really more than another media outlet trying to fling dust in a dreadful hope of gaining readership. Pitiful. I personally don’t have an issue with a beer, but if what I’m doing would cause my brother to fall….even if I have the freedom to do so within Christ, then sacrafice is greater and will glorify God more…that is the goal. Period.