18
questions: relationships—inside
why are relationships so volatile within the church? it seems that so often we have to walk on eggshells around each other so as not to “offend” or “hurt the others feelings.” so, instead of dealing with issues or problems that we may have, we repress them, hold them down and let the frustration and anger build within until we explode… and that’s never a pretty situation. sometimes our relationships are extremely childish as we run around talking to others about problems that we have with a person instead of just dealing with them directly… and somehow we’ve told ourselves that we do these things out of love. “it’s the loving thing to do to walk around on eggshells.” “it’s the loving thing to do to not confront someone.” (but only because it’s an uncomfortable thing for us to do.) so we’ve found ways to justify our cowardice by using “love” as the scapegoat.
by no means do i think that this is a problem solely associated with the church, however i do believe that it gets magnified within the church moreso than in other places. but why is this the case? why do we in the church get so bent out of shape so easily and so quickly when it comes to those that we are supposedly supposed to love—our brothers and sisters? i’ll make an assertion that this happens more often in unhealthy churches—and is something that could quite possibly be unique to unhealthy communities… so, how can this be changed? is the level of intimacy—the deepness of relationships within the church directly related to the depth of our discipleship? (i recognize that this is a hard question to answer because depth is relative to your own thinking—pharisaical thought.)
is it that we make relationships within the church so difficult? i’ve never experienced more difficult relationships than within the church—it seems relationships are easier and more relaxed outside of the church than within the church… is it because we put on the “mask of perfection” in our church-relationships (read: a lack of authenticity) and we are allowed to actually be ourselves around those not in the church?
just a few questions i’ve been wrestling with… what’s the solution to good, deep, authentic relationships in the church?
---
18 Responses to “questions: relationships—inside”
Leave a Reply
I think relationships in church (and at the workplace) tend to be difficult because we are forced into them. Whereas most of our normal friendships are chosen because of like-personalities or interests. If a friend hurts you badly, you can choose the friendship to end. But, if a church person hurts you, you still have to see them every week.
That’s a good observation, Eric.
I wonder if you were in the marketplace, if you would be complaining about the relationships on the job. I say that to illustrate that part of the problem, is that the church relationships are where you have been spending most of your time, until your recent promotion.
Churches are like families and some some are pretty much dysfunctional. Yet, I have come to see how I relate with people as a personal responsibility. Some relationships are very challenging, but we are still responsible for how we relate and how we are doing at balancing truth and grace. Not dealing with something until you find yourself exploding really is a personal choice. I sound awfully dam preachy here and it is not as tough I have never exploded. Yet, there is more personal choice here than meets the eye.
I think the biggest thing that has totally puzzled me is how quickly people can change their attitude toward you when you are a pastor. It seems like if a person seems to love you and you can do no wrong; they most certainly will be the ones who turn against you and stab you in the back when you make a decision they don’t like. It’s fickleness and frailty that bothers me most.
just a note: this observation has become all the more real as i have noticed such a stark difference in how relationships work now that i am no longer “a part” of a church body. being out in the workforce has really opened my eyes to some things. it’s rather remarkable how childish the church is at times and honestly it makes me wonder if this is more of a stumbling block for non-believers than the foolishness of the cross… they don’t even want to hear about the cross cause their tired of the drama in our relationships.
I found it important to get outside of the church culture to see the church culture for what it is.
Aside from the above, what are you learning from the outside? How do churched people seem to regard you now that you are not a part of a church body, especially being a “former pastor” and all?
It really sounds ridiculous — people who dedicate their lives to living like Christ, and they aren’t familiar with the world. What exactly are they teaching you guys in those Christian Colleges (if that is where you went)? The Old Testament only????
Very enlightening, Monts!
I wonder if so many churches fail because the leaders learned wrongly from elder leaders who learned wrongly from their elder leaders?
dada…
“I wonder if so many churches fail because the leaders learned wrongly from elder leaders who learned wrongly from their elder leaders”?
“You wonder” ? b.s. “you know it” !!! Are you afraid to tell the truth ? ;>)
Awesome questions and observations from a “free” man !
First… We are taught that the “truth hurts” instead of the “truth set’s you free” and brings healing. The second quote modeled most effectively by our president… leaders take note…
Second… It’s only natural that the “christian thing to do” is to deceive your brothers and sisters by telling them what they “want to hear” instead of what they”need to hear”… leaders and teachers take note…
Turd… If you want a real teacher/leader, don’t pay them… They do it naturally (i.e. for free)…. Of course if you “want” to control them, by all means, Pay them and Pay them well.
Fort… Let’s not forget to protect our identity, reputation and our resumes.
After all, careers can give the abundant life Jesus spoke of…
damn you dada… You got me off track, What was the question ?
Oh yeah… “what’s the solution to good, deep, authentic relationships in the church” ? Always tell the truth unless you want to f**k somebody, after all it’s just another word for making love…
Grace, Peace and Much Love (well not really) t.f.
Hey aaron…
I prefer a little comedy over drama anyday…
You can strike the previous post if you want too…
No Harm Done… t.f.
dada, what’s with the “enlightening” comment are you a gnostic ?
aaron you should tell him to leave…
Observations…
1. Eric’s first comment is a solid observation.
2. The church is a volunteer organization which quite naturally leads to more butt kissing than truth telling.
3. Aaron’s right. Christians use love as an excuse for selfishness and cowardice in relationships.
4. I would pay good money to attend a panel discussion with Thom and Dada on virtually any topic.
5. Relationships are hard. It is easier to talk about how crappy people are to each other from the outside.
6. Should we be surprised by any of this? Really? Look at the churches of the NT. Outside of that oh so brief episode of community in Acts 2, the church is a storehouse of drama and fractured relationships.
7. Let’s not let this question turn into an excuse for reversed bias against the community of Christ as if the world can really teach the church what idyllic and loving community really looks like.
8. People have different goals for the church and for their own lives spiritually. Many clashes happen in church for precisely this reason. We may worship together, but secretly we hold sometimes radically different expectations. If you work at Starbucks, the expectations are pretty straightforward – we are here to get paid and make Starbucks some money. You may romanticize it, but really everybody can at least agree on that.
9. Dada is right (heaven forbid). The irony (which I know many on this site will knee-jerk disagree with) is that ministers do need professional training for service in the church and the world (If you disagree with that, would you trust your life to a doctor with no professional training?), however, that professional training necessitates a fair amount of isolation from the world and also the church. Christian colleges (especially the one I’m at) can do a much better job of providing balance in the curriculum so that students don’t graduate just knowing scripture, but also knowing people.
how do people treat me now that i am not a part of a church body (especially as a former pastor)? i think it still may be too fresh of a time frame to truly answer that question fairly, however the one observation that i will make is that it seems as if i’m pitied. whenever i see people at starbucks while i’m working they almost always (not every person) take a sort of pitied/condescending tone about things. it gets a little old.
I’m hosting a panel discussion on my site tomorrow night featuring Thom and Dada. They’ll be discussing the necessity, or lack thereof, for a “pastors’ union” designed to protect real pastors from those phonies that do it (pastor) for free
Login Cost: $100 via PayPal.
just because i don’t want to say that i agree with dada i’m going to say that i agree with rags (who agreed with dada).
i think disconnect that Christian Colleges create between the students and the rest of the real world isn’t deliberate… honestly, i don’t think it’s something they’ve really thought about, and as a result has kept students in the dark as to the workings of people that are not in the church. i think dada’s “wondering” of if the church’s failing is a result of leaders learning wrongly from other leaders that learned wrongly is spot on, however at the same time i wonder if it’s not only because of how much the culture changes—it’s hard for the church to adapt and keep up with the changing culture… is this why people that think like the outside (or are in tune with culture) never seem to last long in the church? their “inside” relationships never come to fruition or they’re just given the boot…
I’m all for a Pastor’s union!! The best thing they could do is go out on strike, and bring in the scabs.
My church doesn’t have collection plates, we have collection troughs!
I’ve been meeting more and more people who were seemingly “called” by “God” in high school, went through indoctrination in some wild Christian Right college, and are now REALLY obtuse about reality. One of them I’d call a friend, and I’ve been BEGGING to take him out to a concert or a pub or even just to a TGIFriday’s and show him that the rest of the world really isn’t “hurting” and “in pain” as all the people-on-the-margins who come through the rotating door of “his” church… You get VERY blinded to reality within those cold walls — it is very, very sad.
This is why I really get the feeling that Christ was speaking truth about tearing down the Temple. God designed us with hands to work, brains to think and hearts to love. If we utilized them to our fullest (even if it meant getting a job at Starbucks as our best bet *grin*!), we’d bring the Church to light, rather than try to bring light to a church.
I asked a few people out on the street of Gurnee this week if they go to church, and the common answer is always “There’s so many, which one is right?” or “Nah, I’m happier without the judgement.” Typical, common, but dishearteningly true.
Bring The Church to your skills > bringing your skills to a church
why are relationships so f*cked up within the church? good question. a couple of disjointed suggestions:
1) very, very few of us create space in which we can listen, attend to and interact with our Creator. at least, that’s what i suspect. if our approach to relationships is not shaped by the gratuity and truth of God then we will seek and use relationships that merely serve our self-interest…usually while cloaking our intentions in christianese language.
2) we live in a world that we have too often defined in terms of economic metaphors (i.e., have you heard mega-church folks talk about teaching as “products”?) if we allow these metaphors to shape or even dominate our understanding of reality we should not be surprised if our relationships are marked more by inter-personal competition than mutual cooperation.
3) eric drinks his own pee.
gentry…
I’m sure eric found out about drinking pee (sounds kinky) in Rob Bell’s new “sex god” book.
Point #1 is well taken, whatever it is you said… Same for #2 (not poo)…
dada…
You arrogant slut… I’m not sorry, but you’re right…
arron…
Do you really “wonder” if understanding anthropology would make a difference in someone getting spiritually fed ? Isn’t that the willowback approach ? Is that working ?
The good book says spiritual things are spiritually discerned, so I pose the same question I asked rags in the other post…
Who is responsible for the confusion…
The teachers or the hearers ?
Dave…
I didn’t get an invitation so I may be a “no show” I will be there in spirit…
Did you know that technically, you qualify for pimp status ?
After all, dada and I are a couple of sluts…
rags…
Loved #’s 6 and 7.
# 8… Worship together ? How can that even be possible with unhealthy relationships ? The good book says Don’t even bring your offerings if there is a problem between brothers. Love and forgiveness lead to healing relationships. Which was… oh yeah… gentry’s #1 point, a safe space for truth telling.
Expectations are just illusions, vision is what counts.
#9… you’re wrong and was that a paid endorsement you gave ? :>)
#4… Mmmmmmmmm Money. and good money at that… Thanks…
Topic for discusion…
Sodomy Without Foreplay… Truth Telling In A One Sided Relationship…
Next Week…
Does Butt Kissing Count As Foreplay ? Bend Over, You Decide…
dada and I don’t receive love offerings but will except pure gold…
God’s money… Oh wait, my mistake, gold is asphalt in the kingdom !
Peace Out … t.f.
OK, so I thought about dropping a comment on here BEFORE all the talk about pee & other stuff but was busy checking insurance claims at work. I must be crazy to still give my 2 cents but here it is.
I don’t think about leadership and church methodology when crazy Christian relationships are mentioned. I think about sin. I believe that sin becomes more apparent in relationships. When I was a loner it was easier to think that I didn’t have relational sin. Then I starting hanging out with more people and found myself dealing with selfishness, jealousy, anger….. I think that sin breeds sin. It takes growth and maturity and time to learn to respond to another’s selfishness or anger with love – to set aside our right to be “treated right” and respond in self-effacing love.
As to why this is more prevalent in the church than the world – First, I believe that we do have an evil, malevolent enemy. I think that he works most often in covert ways such as spreading discord in relationships. Most of the time we don’t look for him to act this way. I think we look for him to block our ministry plans or evangelism or something like that. When one Christian is angry or selfish with another we don’t say “Wow, Satan is really coming strong at our church. We should pray for this.” And so I think he gets away with spreading his evil in a largely unchallenged fashion. Second, I always notice the storm clouds more on days when sunshine was forecast. Generally, I come to the church expecting to find fully mature Christians. Instead, I get a lot of people just like me….somewhere on the road to maturity and still with a lot of sin to be worked out. I know I have let down other’s expectations of how a Christian should act. Someday, I’ll have grown into the Kingdom’s beauty. But until then, I’m still a mix of saint and sinner and that can create some relational problems.
Wow, great insights. I think you nailed it – at least from my perspective. We are more shocked by crappy relationships when they happen at church because that is where we least expect it. It is also a very good point about spiritual warfare. God forgive us for becoming too high-minded and philosophical to recognize the truth of the spiritual battle that we are in.
Pixie…
First, I apologize for “boys being boys” of course if you’re related to gentry13 you already know about “boys being boys”… :>)
Second, In the time it took to type it, you taught and demonstrated leadership and church methodology. To be complimented by a professor should demonstrate why women should get the chance to lead and teach the boys for a change.
I am starting the “pastors union” (cool word union, both sacred and sexual) Dave spoke of in the previous post.
Getting back to leadership, I’ll bet rags could teach why you shouldn’t be allowed to teach and lead… It’s a “Boy’s World” baby. shut up… ;>)
No shekhinah allowed…
A little gnostic outside info… It’s believed goddess worship predates worship of a male god. but who cares about anthropology ?
We all know ” In the beginning… GOD” !!!
We just use anthropology when it proves our point as opposed to anothers view.
Sin ? I believe the “cross” trumps sin. I believe “being a new creation” trumps sinful human behavior.
Spiritual warfare ? The putting on… “Christ” really works…
Grace, Peace and Much Love… t.f.
p.s. rags, what about that good money ? Care to corrupt me ?
good thoughts pixie! i don’t often think in terms of setting aside my own “rights” to be treated right in a relational setting. this completely shifts the onus of love and respect, right relationships, and the like squarely upon our own shoulders. so then, how do we get everyone to realize that—or at least half the people? maybe the better question is ‘how do we teach people how to love?’
p.s. good use of the word malevolent… it’s one of my favorites and not oft used!