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a little bit of history repeating
yesterday as i drove up to chicago and back i noticed something that had always been there, but had never really paid it much attention: the american flag… everywhere. there were big ones, small ones, some the size of your head; they were affixed to the back of trucks and cars, lining fence posts, painted on barns—and this doesn’t even go to mention the fact that i’ve seen people in the past turning the flag into shorts, tank tops, bandana’s, etc, etc, etc. even as i went out to dinner last night with tracy, one of the 16-year old hostesses was walking around with two little american flags hanging out of her back pockets. as an american i should be excited about this occurrence, saying that i’m not very surprised at all by what i’ve seen while proclaiming that our patriotism is a greatly needed thing at this time in our history. however, i can’t and i won’t.
what we are experiencing and seeing around our country is not patriotism at all but rather a burgeoning form of nationalism that we have so cleverly veiled as patriotism.
if i remember correctly from US History in high school, it was nationalism that was one of the main causes of world war II. we stood by and watched as hitler brilliantly and charismatically instilled a tremendous amount of nationalistic pride in his countrymen and people as flags flew everywhere and demonstrations of their great power and might rolled through the city streets. germany believed that they were the most superior country in the world and eventually cambe to see themselves as the superior race. (this doesn’t even go to mention the flourishing nationalistic pride that was occuring within the U.S., France, Japan, Italy, Great Brittan, etc, at the same time.) as we (the U.S.) continue down this path today with nationalism as our operating principle we continue to walk steadily towards what could be another massive collapse of our worldwide community—our global village—by way of war.
recently, we’ve done a good job of convincing ourselves that we are just a “patriotic country”, that we have a healthy sense of patriotism, and “if you don’t feel the same way then get out of this country!” in fact, just last night i had an interesting conversation with a gentleman as he spoke of the ills of immigration saying that, “those people” are unpatriotic and a cancer to our nations pride. no sir, you have deemed immigrants to be a second-class people unworthy of our “great society”.
our so-called patirotism is spewing forth into nationalsim where true americans, patriotic americans are the superior ones and everyone else on the world stage or in our own country are deemed worthless. maybe that’s why it’s so easy for so many to continue to proclaim the inherent goodness of the iraq war, because it’s a show of our superiority or because we truly believe the iraq people to be second-class (or third-class, or no-class) citizens of the world who just play the part of the pawn in our attempted little game of world domination thinly veiled as liberation.
unfortunatly, there’s nothing being done about our rocketing nationalism and our spineless democratic leaders have yet again decided to show that they are all talk as they back down from their stance of a timetable for withdrawl of U.S. troops from Iraq. (whether or not it is a good idea to pull out of iraq i am unsure of, but i think that’s because it’s truly a lose/lose situation—oh no, i said lose.) i suppose our country will continue in this downward spiral until it’s too late to recover.
what does this mean? i’m not sure, but everyone always seems to compare the U.S. to Rome, and it was Rome that was ransacked and destroyed by barbarians*… maybe this is just history repeating itself.
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*you make the call as to whom i am referring to as barbarians—the terrorists or politicians—because at this point i’m unsure.
18 Responses to “a little bit of history repeating”
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I think you can legitimately question the loyalty of wanna-be immigrants, who proclaim a detestable hatred for everything about America besides the economic privileges of it, without believing that those people are “beneath” you.
Monts,
I see your parallel with Rome. I also see a parallel with (at least some) Second Temple Judaism (2TJ). I’m thinking of Romans 2 and 3 particularly. Paul argues, convincingly to me, that Jewish nationalism will not fly. The true People of God are not those who have the history of covenant and posession of Torah. The true People of God are those who have the kind of faith that Abraham had (Romans 4): faith that God raises the dead.
I can see both Empire (Rome) and “divine nationalism” (2TJ) today. (Interesting though, one could argue that “divine nationalism” is a way of describing Empire as well. Maybe some of the 2TJ’s beef with Rome was more than anti-oppressor, but jealousy of position in the world?). If the nation that had the Torah can’t cling to nationalism, certainly no other nation can. Israel could theoretically have more reason to claim “God’s country” than the USA, but Paul won’t let them, so he probably wouldn’t let the USA do it either.
Aaron, you ended with a reminder of Rome’s destruction. I’ll remind of the Temple’s destruction in 70CE for rejecting Jesus as their King and choosing their nation and history instead. Just a thought.
Good post, montsy.
Since Jesus is our King and only King, national identity has nothing to do with Christians. As said in the Letter to Diognetus (2nd century AD):
(Christians) live in their own countries, but only as aliens. They have a share in everything as citizens, and endure everything as foreigners. Every foreign land is their fatherland, and yet for them, every fatherland is a foreign land.
Nationalism is rampant in Evangelican Christianity because of decades of false teachings by warmongers like Dobson, Falwell and Robertson. These men profit from their pro-nationalism stance.
I would never pledge allegiance to a flag or a nation. I would never put my hand over my heart while staring at a flag that stands for murder, rape, theft and lies. Yet I am a patriot — I believe in the full force of the Constitution to limit government from harming me or my freedoms.
A patriot can not support the U.S. the way it stands today — neither the Remocrats nor the Depublicans. Both parties are arguably unpatriotic because they’ve forgotten the Constitution and how it bars them from trampling on our rights.
Thank God for what the U.S. is going through — His promises still stand today. Our government steals from us with “our” support, and we become poorer. God showed this rule to be true, and will continue to do so. Our government murders with “our” support, and many die because of this. Thank God for this proof of His remarkable and perfect insight. Our government whores itself with the churches that use the faith base initiative act, and in the end it is growing more useless in terms of providing a benevolent environment for any and all to reap what they sow. As it grows, what we sow has no connection to what we’ve reaped.
Remember, Ron Paul (Presidential Candidate) is the only candidate from either party to express true Christian values:
1. No war without a proper declaration from Congress and its oversight (hasn’t happened since WWII) — which is condoning murder.
2. No federal income tax — which is theft.
3. No federal entitlements.
4. No federal police state.
5. No federal ID.
6. No federal regulation or subsidization on the Church (whoring with the State).
7. No federal subsidy or restriction for “sinful” acts such as abortion, gambling, prostitution — the very items that the Church has been better at combating than the law.
8. No federal interaction with drug laws that impair the individual’s responsibility to deny those impulses.
In my opinion and doctrine, God doesn’t work actively as He did during the 1st century and before, but His very Word shows time and again the evil acts that men do and the penalty for supporting those evil acts.
I can only pray to return to a Republican form of government, where your community is more powerful than the State or the Federation of States. We are not a Nation, we are a Republic. May we return to those days, and the blessing we reaped during those days, in my lifetime.
brilliantly said. i actually have a post that i never finished about this exact thing.
and eric. i would say that the gross majority of immigrants do not have a detestable hatred for our country. and those that do have probably gotten to that point because of the detestable hatred that many nationalistic americans have shown them.
Wow, let me be the evil nationalist among you all (or maybe the evil non-Jehovah’s Witness among you). Monts, let me first say that “I love you,” but could it be that you are eisegeting your own bias into all of the American flags that you are seeing? A waving American flag simply does not equate to nationalism (Did I hear another “Hitler fallacy” being casually thrown around?). Here is what the (unenlightened) masses believe…
We are in a war (Save me the political grandstanding about whether it is a “good” war or not. The fact is that we are at war. How perverse and self-hating would it be to not wave the flag at a time of national testing?)
We were attacked (I’m sorry, I know we aren’t allowed to mention the distant past when we are firmly standing on our soap boxes, but the mass of Americans remember that we were attacked and this has changed the way that many Americans look at the world.)
Most Americans love their country (Yes, it is terribly naive given how evil we are, but the sad truth is that most Americans don’t hate themselves to the level that they rightly should.)
Ron Paul will never be elected president (but you already knew that)
American culture is better than many cultures around the world (Oh, no he didn’t!). Listen, sometimes the view from the ivory tower obscures what is patently obvious to the average plebian. Please, I’m certainly not claiming that we are in some sense a “Christian” nation and I’m certainly not advocating some sort of neo-colonialism (although…never mind), but what drives the average person crazy is being told by the educated elite that we are in virtually every way worse than the rest of the world whether it’s health care (I’m talking to you Michael Moore), environment (I’m talking to you Al Gore), human rights (I’m talking to you Amnesty International), national defense (I’m talking to you Ron Paul), economic policy (I’m talking to you Dada), etc. etc. etc.
Anyway, fire away.
Simply think about these thoughts…
How would you like it if Iran, France (jokingly said), China, etc, etc all had over 100 full blown military bases around the world including right here in the US?
How would you like it if a coveted shrine like the Crystal Cathedral, or even the grounds at 9-11, were bulldozed and an Iranian military base was set up there?
How would you like it if you went out on Lake Michigan for a casual cruise and had to avoid Chinese air craft carriers and military ships?
This is how we are viewed, right, wrong, or in between. I agree with what Rob stated “When the flag comes before Christ, something is definitely wrong”
Ron Paul could win if people would open their eyes to the issues at hand. He is a conservative at its core definition, but a moderate when you factor in the radical left and right on both sides. America has always leaned “moderate” when it comes down to it and so do most people.
rags: A waving American flag simply does not equate to nationalism
What does it equate to?
rags: We are in a war
They’re wrong. We are not in a war with any nation as of today. The last time war was declared was when the United States actually declared war in 1941. Since then, the United States never has been in a war. To wave the flag in support of your government committing murder (any act of offensive killing another outside of a legally declared war) is nationalism.
rags: We were attacked
They’re wrong there, too. We were never “attacked,” we had an act of reprisal committed against us due to our meddling previously in the lives of others, illegally and counter to the rule of law. In response to this act of reprisal, which was an act of air piracy since it involved the breaking of many laws, Ron Paul promoted a bill called the Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001. In this act, Paul specifically condemned the individuals and their military group for their actions. This was a Constitutionally sound policy. Going after two countries was not.
A Christian who supports aggression is not a Christian who has read and understood the Bible. Here is where most of your congregations have failed miserably and completely.
Ron Paul will never be elected president
It doesn’t matter who wins the Presidency as long as faithless Christians continue to go against Christ’s teachings. We’re here to be stewards to the world, and when we go against those teachings, we’re just part of the world. We’re not Jews (who lost God’s Mandate), we’re God’s People of peace and love.
American culture is better than many cultures around the world
But closer to the middle of the pack than the top of the pack. What is “better” for you isn’t better for all.
but what drives the average person crazy is being told by the educated elite that we are in virtually every way worse than the rest of the world whether it’s health care (I’m talking to you Michael Moore), environment (I’m talking to you Al Gore), human rights (I’m talking to you Amnesty International), national defense (I’m talking to you Ron Paul), economic policy
In all those cases we are no different from the rest of the world any longer. We’re not worse, we’re equal.
Christians are all about being “pro-life” but you absolutely positively can not be pro-life if you are pro-war in any way. Not even in defense. Christ told us so. Most Christians in the U.S. can not be Christians if they serve two kings. Christ told us so. Most Christians can not respond to the needs of others as long as they support the theft of others. Christ told us so. Most Christians who support murder will find themselves living in fear of being murdered. Christ told us so.
Why are the congregations not teaching about Christ? Why are they falling on the failed Old Testament mortals when they could be lifted up by the New Testament immortal Truth?
Wow, you mean Ron Paul wanted to severely chastise those mean men who killed close to 3000 American citizens – that is the making of a truly great leader. I’m sure they would have been sufficiently shamed into changing their ways. Bad, terrorists, bad! Or are they really “bad” at all, since we asked for it anyway? Those poor jerks in New York got what they deserved. Dada, you are great at making sweeping statements about the correct interpretation of scripture, but (and I don’t mean this as harshly as it sounds) your preterism calls into question much of your interpretation of scripture (at least for me).
I’m done before I say something regretful.
Rags – do you think Jesus would have “nuked the bastards?”
Honestly if it isnt about forgiveness, love, and acceptance, then honestly its against the Bible. Its never to say what happened was right, its a matter of what is first, the flag or the cross.
OK, I don’t think that I ever advocated a “nuke the bastards” approach although I was really tired earlier, so there’s no telling.
Although, for the sake of argument, I have heard an interesting proposal recently. One of the things that kept us out of “hot war” with the Soviets was the doctrine of MAD. Of course the Democrats were sure at the time that Reagan was a reckless idiot, but it proved to be an effective deterant. Given that historical reality, we ought to train several nuclear warheads permanently on Mecca and Medina with the simple promise that the minute a nuclear bomb goes off in a major US, European, or Israeli city, Mecca is leveled. I am not advocating this theory necessarily. It’s just something to think about. Anyway, I didn’t say that the Christian thing to do is nuke them all. It is problematic to start asking too many WWJD type questions however when it comes to such things as a global response to terror or even questions like “would Jesus drive an SUV.” Usually, we stack the deck in our favor when it comes to the WWJD argument.
And of course I agree that the cross comes before the flag. My point was actually very simple. There is nothing “un-Christian” about showing a little respect and even love for your country – your people, your heritage, your history, your culture, and yes, even God’s providential oversight. Have you ever noticed how inconsistent our belief in providence is? Right now Christians are praying (as they should) that God would intervene in the dark places of earth like Darfur. And if something positive should happen, millions of Christians will rightly praise their God. We are comfortable with and hopeful for providence when it comes to other people and nations, but if we dare talk about how God has worked in the history of our nation or is currently working – we (at least our generation) become strangly silent. We become scared of saying that perhaps God has blessed this nation in unique ways. It sounds so ethnocentric and arrogant. No, the truth is that God hates America and so should we.
Note: I’m not saying that any of you “hate” America (even you, Dada. I know there’s a little flag waiver in you somewhere). I’m just ranting right now.
Rags: OK, I don’t think that I ever advocated a “nuke the bastards†approach although I was really tired earlier, so there’s no telling.
That’s good
I can’t begin to tell you how many Christians I meet that still profess Tancredo’s idea of nuking everything in the Middle East and “be done with it.” Scary.
Rags: One of the things that kept us out of “hot war†with the Soviets was the doctrine of MAD. Of course the Democrats were sure at the time that Reagan was a reckless idiot, but it proved to be an effective deterant.
I definitely can not agree here. The U.S. had little to nothing to do with the Soviet downfall — the Soviet Empire fell because of purely economical reasons. Socialism and Empirism always brings an end to the Nation that professes both. Also, the Military-Industrial Complex was greatly involved in promoting the Cold War from as far back as the 60s. In 1972, Nixon authorized the Bryant Chucking Grinder Corporation to sell the Soviets the technology which made possible MIRVed nuclear missiles. Until then, the Soviets were unable to truly force a nuclear action. That isn’t the only case of the U.S. providing technology to the Soviets to push the war issue more. “War is the health of the State” as Bismarck said.
The more information that becomes declassified during the decades of Cold war, the more we find out about the collusion of our own government with the enemy. Look at the Mujehaddin issue, who were hired and trained and armed by the U.S. against the Russians. Even today we sell arms and war machinery to States with terrible communique with our Republic.
Rags: Given that historical reality, we ought to train several nuclear warheads permanently on Mecca and Medina with the simple promise that the minute a nuclear bomb goes off in a major US, European, or Israeli city, Mecca is leveled. I am not advocating this theory necessarily. It’s just something to think about.
That’s all we need. Give a few U.S. terrorists a reason to start a nuclear war. Our own local terrorists (white, Christian, nationalists) have as much opportunity to nuke a building and blame it on the Middle East. I can’t think of many Middle Eastern nations that could afford nuclear technology and transport it to the U.S.
Rags: It is problematic to start asking too many WWJD type questions however when it comes to such things as a global response to terror or even questions like “would Jesus drive an SUV.†Usually, we stack the deck in our favor when it comes to the WWJD argument.
I can’t think of ONE area where the WWJD question can’t be raised. We know Christ was a peacemaker, not a warmonger. We know Christ’s opinions on dealing with one’s enemies. We know Christ’s resolve to be non-resistant. We’re a Republic of 300 million people — the opportunity to destroy a significant portion of the country is unrealistic. When we were truly a Republic of 50 individual States, we had a better foreign policy — no standing army, no offensive posturing, no inflationary currency. 1974 changed all that with a drive to become a Nation in full, and the rest is history. Going back to being 50 States makes it that much more impossible to destroy the “American War.” Returning to a Republic of sound currency (no inflation, no Federal Reserve) will allow us to trade with the world peacefully, and entangle in no foreign alliances.
Rags: Have you ever noticed how inconsistent our belief in providence is? Right now Christians are praying (as they should) that God would intervene in the dark places of earth like Darfur. And if something positive should happen, millions of Christians will rightly praise their God. We are comfortable with and hopeful for providence when it comes to other people and nations, but if we dare talk about how God has worked in the history of our nation or is currently working – we (at least our generation) become strangly silent. We become scared of saying that perhaps God has blessed this nation in unique ways.
I’m not a big believer in direct Providence (of course), because God/Christ’s actions and words show us why certain Nations succeed and certain fail. When the US was composed of individuals free to live, we prospered. Since 1913, when we first became a Nation, we stepped on the path to debt and destruction. Look at the failure of the US dollar in such a short span of time. Look at the debt that the average family bears for a lifetime. Look at the impossibility of providing for the poor and needy through congregations when we have to give 50% of our earnings to a State that doesn’t really care about any individuals, just voting blocs.
Nations such as Darfur suffer because of the State that destroys the ability of the average person to life themselves out of poverty and ineducation. The US is going in that direction. We stopped listening to God’s provisions (don’t steal a la inflation, don’t lie a la politics, don’t fight a la warmongering), and we’re reaping what we’ve sown for decades: debt and slavery to the State.
Rags: It sounds so ethnocentric and arrogant. No, the truth is that God hates America and so should we.
Note: I’m not saying that any of you “hate†America (even you, Dada. I know there’s a little flag waiver in you somewhere). I’m just ranting right now.
I don’t hate America, I disrespect the Nationalism and Democracy that has taken over individual freedom and the ability to live for God first. Give 10% to God, give 50% to the State? No thanks. I also don’t believe God hates anyone anymore, Christ’s life and Resurrection fulfilled His Demands for us. That doesn’t mean that we can’t turn things around and return to a Republic of responsible individuals who can learn from their mistakes — with the Church fulfilling the duties of meeting the needs of those who fall short.
Just to clarify (again), I’m not advocating a MAD approach to the war on terror (or conflict with disenfranchised victims of America – whatever floats your boat). I’m simply saying that it is at least thought-provoking.
Dada, your political theory continues to baffle me. Didn’t Jesus essentially say that paying taxes was acceptable? After all, what is money anyway? Was it government-sanctioned stealing when the Israelites were commanded (not urged) to give a tithe to their brothers the Levites?
Also, my comment about WWJD might need a little explaining. I’m not saying that it is irrelevant. I’m simply saying 1) that it is simplistic, and simplistic moralisms are not always helpful in the real world. 2) WWJD arguments are so often used to support our own agenda. We use it like a weapon. For example, Jesus was a pacifist (a pacifist according to my own interpretation and understanding) and so therefore you should be a pacifist and so should the nation of America (which everyone knows isn’t a Christian nation, but nevertheless should always conduct itself with a WWJD mentality). In other words, WWJD arguments seldom take into account the nuances of a particular moral issue. It is easy to short-circuit dialogue by saying, “Jesus was a pacifist and that’s that” without really doing the difficult work of listening, defining our terms, and exegeting God’s word.
Monts, now am more sorry than ever about Tuesday’s unfortunate non-introduction with you and adam.
pt
Although I don’t think we are where Germany was when the National Socialists (Nazis) came to power, there are things that disturb me.
The other day I saw a truck in traffic here in NJ with a big sign on the back. The sign had an American flag in the background, with the text: America – Love it or leave it.
That’s not an adequate choice. If by “love” this person means accept it the way it is, I question whether this is really love. Truth be told, he’s probably just a xenophobe. A lot of Americans are.
Rudy Giuliani recently indicated that he would have no problem using “extreme measures” to extract info from detainees if there was an imminent threat of a terrorist act.
Did all of those college ethics classes over the past two generations fall on completely deaf ears, or have we really fallen to this level?
BTW, I minister to immigrants, both “legal” and “illegal,” and haven’t found one yet who “detests” the United States. In prayers I often hear them thank God for this land of freedom and opportunity, even as they ask for the chance for permancency here.
A lot of stereotypes would be lost if people met a few immigrants and really got to know them.
It’s probably just easier to believe what Fox News and Lou Dobbs on CNN say, though.
i feel very blessed to live in america. when i fly an american flag, i’m expressing my gratitude about the freedoms that i enjoy because of living here. and i fly it to support the troops serving me both in the past and in the current war.
this is a really good conversation…
with that said, i only wanted to clarify one thing and make one observation.
rags you make a good point about the possibility of me implying meaning upon all the flags that i saw flying and although i can see that as a possibility, i don’t think it is the case—of course i don’t have any scientifically verifiable evidence for my observations. however, i don’t believe that we are at war (holy crap i just agreed with dada!) years ago our president proclaimed “mission accomplished” and the end of hostilities in iraq. the iraq war ended when we toppled the government. we are no longer engaged in a war, but rather in a policing situation as we attempt to restore order to a country that was ravaged by a war. unfortunately we’re not receiving any support from the rest of the world to make that a reality—and undersandably so considering we turned our noses up at them and said we could do it all by ourselves. so, for the flags to be flying because we are in a war, can be just as “faulty” of an argument as reading nationalism instead of patriotism into the flying of a flag—or 10 from the back of your car.
an astounding observation i made while driving to st. louis last week: i counted 70+ flags on cars, barns, etc, before getting bored of counting. now i did think, “maybe this is because of the memorial day weekend that i am seeing these things.” however, the majority of the flags i saw were tattered, dingy, and older looking flags that had certainly held their position for some time and were not recent additions for the weekend. an even more astouding observation i made and quite possibly the most disturbing one was that of a church that draped a “gas station-sized” flag over the front of their building. at first i believed that this could be in celebration of the memorial day weekend, however when i drove the same church on memorial day the flag was no longer there. (there could be a multitude of reasons for having the flag draped like that over the church, but it struck me as extremely inappropriate.) i fear that this shows the nature of christianity within america as nothing more than a civil religion that celebrates and elevates the country more than the gospel of Jesus. (i say this after being a part of a church that put more emphasis and energy into the 4th of July than they did Easter Sunday.)
maybe my view is tainted… maybe i’ve seen too much of the bad side of church for me to have a healthy view, or even an optimistic view of what it actually is. i know i’m not looking through rose-colored lenses, but sometimes i wish others would stop looking through those rose-colored lenses and pay attention to reality for just a moment.
[...] some larger context, although I’m about 7 months late in posting this link, Aaron Monts has a great post that he wrote back in June of last year on the differences between nationalism and patriotism. You [...]