why pastors get fired
5.May.08 | ecclesiology, vocation |
Ever wonder the main reasons for why pastors get fired? Me too! Thank to the Baptist Press, they’ve given us a new report on the forced termination of pastors in the Southern Baptist Convention.
10. conflict with other staff
9. sexual misconduct
8. administrative incompetence
7. week leadership style
6. decline in attendance
5. conflict pre-dating the pastor’s arrival
4. too-strong leadership style
3. poor people skills
2. church’s resistance to change
1. control issues (the same #1 reason every year since 1996)
I found it really interesting that of the top 10, five had to do with issues surrounding the pastors leadership style or approach. It makes me wonder if the church could reduce some of the pain of termination and overall terminations by simply added 2 components—better leadership training of pastors; and equipping churches with simple human resource tools in the interviewing process.
Jeff |
5.May.08 @ 10:18 am
#5 makes me curious:
5. conflict pre-dating the pastor’s arrival
Is this old stuff that shows up in the church and causes issues, or are these revelations of previous activities that the church just now feels are “unbecoming”.
First makes sense. Second seems hypocritical.
monts |
5.May.08 @ 10:31 am
Good question Jeff… My thought was that it is a conflict that is there before the pastor even arrives that is still causing issues. I would guess that in some way the new pastor failed to squelch the issue and it led to his dismissal; he got involved in the issue and allowed it to consume him and it led to his dismissal; or the issue was so complex that he was a lame duck—the church hired too quickly—and it led to his dismissal.
Those are my thoughts… anyone else?
Jason |
6.May.08 @ 3:02 pm
Never mind the system itself is broke. Its kind of like the whole president thing. No one person will change a broken system.
Maybe the reason pastors are fired is because the church system as we know it is wrong and broke? Thoughts on that?
monts |
7.May.08 @ 7:55 pm
Jason, I think you’re starting with the wrong assumption. If it’s broke, then nothing should be working… yet, there is life-change happening in the church and there is good happening in the church as we know it. If it is broken then nothing like this should be happening.
It’s not a broke system because God is still at work and moving in and through the church.
Jason |
9.May.08 @ 7:54 pm
If it isnt broke why plant new churches, why not go to existing ones? If its not broke why are people leaving in droves from congregations across the US? If its not broke, why do 80+% claim Christianity yet less than 45% claim to be a part of a given church? The list goes on and on….
monts |
9.May.08 @ 11:17 pm
Jason, that’s not a logical argument because you’re still beginning with the wrong assumptions.
Why plant new churches? Because if every single person in the U.S. wanted to attend a church, there wouldn’t be enough room to hold them. Planting churches is not reactionary to the way things are in the church (another widely held wrong assumption) it is because there simply aren’t enough churches.
Why are people leaving in droves from congregations? Maybe another question from the other side of the coin would be: why are people also leaving from the house churches? Why are house churches dying? Why is every expression of church falling a part? It’s not the systems—although I would agree that there can always be some tweaking for cultural context. Rather, it’s because of people. People are the problem not the church itself. This would also partly answer the question of why 80%+ claim to be Christian yet less than 45% claim to be a part of a given church.
The other side of the coin to that is to question whether or not they have truly been transformed by the Holy Spirit. 94%+/- of Americans believe there is a God, but that doesn’t mean every single one of them is a part of some sort of worship of that (G)god, regardless of the religion.
The question isn’t about the systems—you can agree or disagree with how they play out, there are different expressions of the church for different people. Rather, the question is about people… our brokenness, our fallenness, not the church.
Jason |
10.May.08 @ 10:19 pm
Why not stay at the local baptist church on the corner then and spew turn or burn? Is that not a broken system?
Its not about house churches being right. Its about the evangelical church as we know it failing for the past 20 years. Sure there are some good things that happen out of every situation, but there also are some serious wrong things in the way churches have treated people like a group of cattle.
I also very much disagree with your assumption there arent enough churches. There certainly are around these parts, and empty buildings and empty churches. And theres also a whole assumption they have to be in a building to be in a church. Again, the thought that people are cattle and need to be rounded up and plopped in a building on a sunday morning for it to be church.
I bet SF has plenty of churches, but I hope your goal of a church plant is to offer something a tad different than get em in the door and program them with your beliefs. I hope its about genuine love and reaching out to many that wouldnt find themselves in church only to find out hey this “church” isnt what I expected church to be. Its more about following Christ!
House churches are far from perfect, but so are organized building churches. I think you honestly have to step away from it all to see it clearly. I know several pastors who think the same way.
monts |
11.May.08 @ 7:35 am
Again, you’re talking about people, not the system. Turn or burn is people’s understanding of the gospel, not the system’s understanding. I’m not trying to make a distinction between “traditional” church and “house” church, rather I was communicating that they’re in the exact same boat (contrary to Barna and Viola’s assertions.) The system for house churches is just the same as the systems for “traditional” church—just on a smaller scale, making it more manageable.
You’re perception that there are more than enough churches is simply that, perception and not fact. Let’s take SF for instance (since I know the numbers pretty well.) There are less than 150 “traditional” churches in the entire city. For the sake of argument, let’s round that up to 200. Now let’s say that there are 200 house churches in the city, a 1 to 1 ratio (which is much higher than the national average.) So, generously speaking, there are in effect 400 churches in the entire city. The population of the city is 750,000 (give or take). This means there is one church for every 1,875 people… or every church has to average 1,875 in order to meet their part of reaching the city. Can you fit 1,875 people in your living room? Then there aren’t enough churches. In fact, most church buildings can’t house that many people. The facts for SF are, there aren’t enough churches.
Take Zion for instance… crunch the numbers and see what you get. I think a conservative estimate of population is 25,000… and there are probably not more than 30 churches in the city itself (only Zion). And double it for the sake of argument. That means that there is one church for every 417 people. Again, you cannot house that many in most church buildings… or a living room. So, the only conclusion is reproduction… because there simply aren’t enough churches.
Back to the systems argument… the systems in the church are the same that they have been since the church was started 2000 years ago. The system is not broken, it’s the people.
Jason |
12.May.08 @ 10:01 am
The people are the system too, because the people who are running the churches are the ones who have made the system.
My point simply being, more churches arent the answer to the larger problem.
Build 1,000,000 traditional denominational/evangelical churches across the US and see what changes. Not much as far as big impact. I think the numbers are clear, people who come to new churches for the most part are coming out of other churches. However build 1,000,000 non traditional smaller church plants with less overhead, less political strife, less “system” involvement, and the greater impact you will see I believe. I think the numbers out there agree with this too.
The system to me (whether its people or system, they seem one in the same to me on some level) is build a building, get people in the door, get them educated to your beliefs, leave little room for true conversation and debate, make some by-laws, a doctrine, and make people adhere to that line. The system I was a part of for 25+ years actively was all about that. And I saw it across many denominations, and many non denominations. That to me makes it a system, and that to me is what is broke.
Dont get me wrong Im not against the church plants, and I am for them when they are not about being part of the system I see, but a part of the revolution I hope to be a part of.
Matt M. |
12.May.08 @ 3:43 pm
Got to love church blog arguments, they solve everything dont they.